Ok! M, I swapped the chords around to better follow your progression in the head. Both on this chord sheet and the play along.

https://docs.google.com/ope...

...and included the melody for good measure...

I will also have to note that a couple Bbm11's made it onto the last line of the head on the chord sheet. They are Bm's on the play along, which is correct. Just have to cross out a couple flats on my sheet. (Dang mistakes!!)

On the form: the play along plays 8 bars intro, head 2x, 3 solo chorus', head 2x, repeat the last line 2 more times and out.

Like to hear what NSM would use to play over the solo section.

Haha, and I'd love to hear your shot at it as well.

Thanks for the sheet. Looks good!

Like to hear what NSM would use to play over the solo section.>

Usually I just think of the chord sequence when I'm playing - I don't think in terms of scales at all, just sounds in my head. Of course that doesn't mean I don't play scale passages, but there are often several possible scales which could be used for each chord so I don't tend to decide which ones I'm going to use in advance, I just start playing and see where my ear takes me.

The thing with scales is that you need to practise them to the point where you don't have to think about them when you're improvising, or to paraphrase the famous Charlie Parker quote - 'you gotta learn all that stuff then forgot about it'. If you asked me what scale I was using at any given point in a solo I could tell you, but I wouldn't give it any conscious thought until you asked me. Also there are things other than scales that are used in improvising.

Having said all that, there are a couple of things in the sequence that I wouldn't do - for example, I wouldn't think about the Bb7 chord, I'd think E7alt. The Bb7 is a tritone sub for E7 anyway and you'd probably end up playing the same thing but I just prefer, when I'm soloing over chords, to have the simplest possible version of the sequence in my head. I can then put my own bits and pieces over the top of that instead of following somebody else's ideas.

The exception to this approach though is in modal tunes like 'Milestones' - the whole point of that kind of tune is to exploit the sound of a particular scale or mode, so obviously to do that you need to use the mode that was intended by the writer of the tune.

At some point soon I'll record something - either Summertime or Milestones or maybe another tune I have in mind that's relevant to some of the things being discussed here - I've just decided to upgrade my BIAB since the new version has just become available for Macs, I've ordered the 'UltraPak' which is apparently much better than what I have at the moment, it should arrive soon so once I've played around with it a bit, I'll do some recording.

ohhhh btw i just noticed mega, you asked if you could download those two tunes - please feel free to download any of the stuff i put online - i appreciate your courtesy in asking though

NSM!

Thanks!

Hey, what's your approach to alt chords, like that E7alt instead of the Bb?

I hope to record something soon too. I'm recording on my iPad. I ran into a situation where my earphone/mic input jack is messed up. And amplitube won't use a USB mic through the bottom. Lastly, I can't adjust the mic sensitivity in garage band...

So, until I work something else out.

Can you record into BiaB?

The basic scale for an altered chord is the altered scale, also known as the superlocrian mode - whatever name you give it, it's the seventh mode of the ascending melodic minor. So, in the case of E7alt, it contains E F G Ab Bb C D E.....also, a diminished scale could fit as an alternative (that's alternating semitones and tones - in this case, that gives E F G Ab Bb B C# D E), or if you want a more 'outside' sound, the G pentatonic minor (G Bb C D F G) can be 'extracted' from the superlocrian.

I believe it's possible to record into BIAB but I've never used it for that. There are good BIAB forums online though, somebody HERE could probably help with that

NSM-you rock.

I've used the 7th mode of Melodic over a few like that. I'm very excited to try that over the Bb7 tritone sub now! Thanks for all the great info.

Thanks for the link too!

I'm studying what my bandleader calls the 'octotonic' scale for a m7b5 - 7b9 - m7 sequence. I hope I remembered that correctly; I still have to do the woodshedding with that one.

Is that the scale you're talking about NSM?

Octotonic is, as the name implies, an 8 note scale. For an E7alt it's the half/whole version (E F G Ab Bb B C# D E) NSM mentioned above.

Really cool thread, btw.

I like A dorian for soloing (C Lydian) on that song.

In fact, anytime on a minor blues I'm likely to find a happy hunting grounds of note possibilities by playing Dorian (or Lydian mode on the relative major tonic note). Just the way I think on minor blues tunes.

Is that the scale you're talking about NSM?

As tommy59 said above, yes it is. It has lots of interesting uses, and gives rise to some interesting theoretical ideas also - Pat Martino actually makes it the basis of a lot of his understanding of how chords and keys work, and how they relate to each other. The French organist and composer Olivier Messaien used it in the early 1900's and referred to it as one of a group of so-called 'limited transposition' scales - I'd better not get started on explaining that though or I'll be writing a book here!

I prefer to call it the diminished scale rather than the octatonic scale btw, because 'octatonic' can mean ANY scale with 8 notes whereas 'diminished' is more specific......and while I'm listing my preferences, I'd also say that I prefer not to think of it at all when I'm playing - I can't emphasise how important it is to completely internalise these things so that when you are actually improvising, you think of sounds, not theoretical concepts and 'names' of things.

And finally for now.....two little titbits for those of you interested in Summertime - firstly - here's a superb version of it from the amazing Scotty Anderson HERE ........ and here's a Wes Montgomery performance of his tune Four on Six HERE which is a tune based on some pretty nifty chord substitutions of the Summertime chords

Lovely post, Neil.

. . . Messaien used it in the early 1900's and referred to it as one of a group of so-called 'limited transposition' scales

That would be because there are only 3 such scales, eh?

And yes, I am a certified theory geek, and damn proud of it.

I like A dorian for soloing (C Lydian) on that song.

In fact, anytime on a minor blues I'm likely to find a happy hunting grounds of note possibilities by playing Dorian (or Lydian mode on the relative major tonic note). Just the way I think on minor blues tunes.

That lesson I still use today whenever I get to solo on a minor blues!

Right, thanks for confirming Tommy! That helps placing it in a context.

What I find difficult with this scale is -so far as I've tried it now- it only seemed to work well over that particular chord sequence. Did I miss something? Can it be applied wider than just the dim-7b9-m7 sequence?

Thanks for those vids NSM; when I'm home again (and not in a German audio lab), I'll listen to those. Very curious now!

Michiel - regarding the diminished scale - there is a LOT of stuff I could say about it but it would be a ridiculously long post.....i could write something up and put it online or i could do a video tutorial or something like that, i'll give it some thought and see what i can come up with, its an interesting scale and has some strange sounds in it!

Re the two videos - you'll love the Wes one, I'm sure of it

Did I play you any Scotty Anderson when you were here? If he's new to you....prepare to be astonished by his sheer technical brilliance, his right hand control in particular verges on the unbelievable, he's scary!

Neil, I'd soak up anything you can post about the dim scale!

I don't remember talking about/seeing Scotty Anderson when we met. I'm scared now, haha.

Haven't had a chance to watch yet.

k gimme a few days and i'll do you a video with dim scale stuff, i'll get it done probably next weekend, sooner if i can.

Scotty is one of the few players whose hype is not an exaggeration - you're right to be scared and you'll be even more scared when you've heard him - watch his right hand btw, its superhuman, i think he had a transplant from some guy from the planet Krypton.

NSM dim scale vid??? +1 to those waiting for that! I've been lazy learning the half-whole dim., I'm excited to have guys to work it out with. It's about damn time I did, lazy bastage I am.

I totally hear you about internalising this stuff so you can bring it back as sound in music. That's the line in the sand and the key. ...And why so many people think that knowing theory "holds them back" or "stifles their creativity". They haven't crossed the line.

Now, I have to break down Four on Six! ...and get a half-whole under the fingers.

So, Im looking at Four on Six

Replace the II-V's with their parent chords gives you:

Gm7/''''/''''/''''/ Bb/Ab/G/Db/ Gm7/''''/''''/''''/ Bb/Gm/Gm/Gm/

I see where between the first and second lines you get like a mixolydian version of the "Midnight Blue/MH Summertime" progression. 

Ex: 

Midnight Blue: Fm-Gm-Ab as vi-vii-I Four on Six: Gm-Bb-Ab as vi-bvii-I (maybe with a bV turnaround?)

Cool!

On the Am7b5-D7b9

Am7b5: A C Eb G D7b9: D F# A C Eb Gm: G Bb D F

I see: G A Bb C D Eb F# G

Which is: G Harmonic Minor G A Bb C D Eb F# G

I'm interested in the tonal choice of the whole-half dim scale.  More dissonance?

Yep, that's harmonic minor alright. Thus named because it is the scale used to build the chords (harmonies) in a minor key.

If you mean whole/half starting on G, it might be problematic over the V chord, since it has Db, & not D natural. Not that I would discourage you from giving it a try.

"If you mean whole/half starting on G, it might be problematic over the V chord, since it has Db, & not D natural. Not that I would discourage you from giving it a try. " -Tommy

half/whole then? Michiel's Octotonic scale from above over a iim7b5-V7b9-im7.

You know, I'm thinking that is so specific. LOL, I see ii-V in a minor key w/ "jazz notes". So I tend to look for something that will work over that progression and others...

Also, I thought the Harmonic Minor came from adding a major leading tone tone a minor scale and thus creating a V7-im harmony. No?