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Anyone tried "Cascade?"

- Rated: 20 ↑
Sep 30, 2008 1:09 a.m. gresco:

"Cascade" is an uptempo fingerstyle song made famous by Chet, and played successfully by greats like Ray Cummins, Richard Smith, and a few others. Key word is FEW others. I find it a very difficult piece, with a lot of alternate picking, and open strings on upper fret positions. It's hard for me to untrain instincts when picking open strings next to fretted strings up there. The chords are simple and it's easy to follow along in rhythm, but the picking is another story.

I've learned the many different licks phrasing thanks to using Guitar Pro, and downloading the sheet music from Ultimate Guitar. The music shows notation and tabs, and Guitar Pro plays it so you can see it visually being played while listening. It's been a great tool for me. You can slow it down and repeat selected bars and measures, so it enables you to really focus on a problem area. Even with this big advantage I still can only fumble through at 1/2 or 3/4 speed, depending on the degree of difficulty of a given passage. I"m even unable to finger the first part of the opening lick properly because of the difficult finger spread, so I've found another way. It looks easy watching someone else doing it, but it's nye onto impossible for me. Chet liked to use as many open strings as he could, and it's kind of important for this song to sound right.

There are many talented pickers here on the GDP, and I was just wondering if anyone has tackled this one successfully. Moral support and suggestions would nice.

Someday I hope to win and will post an audio clip. Right now it would be too embarrassing.

Here' a video of Ray Cummins' version. Ray Cummins, Cascade
- Rated: 45 ↑
Sep 30, 2008 6:34 a.m. Richard Hudson:

gresco, you have asked a hard thing. I started trying to learn this song a couple of years ago and almost died in pain with my left wrist. I'm talking about keeping me awake at night pain. My first bout with it had me out of action for almost a month. Seriously. That first position is a real stretcher. After the wrist got better, I was dumb enough to try it again and once again...

Anyway, that is one tune I will never be able to play because of that first stretch. However, I do understand it is a great tune and one of Chet's best. And the artist you picked, Ray Cummins, is as close to Chet as you can get on that one. Ray is as smooth as they come. I visit with Ray quite often and we talk about that very tune quite a lot. Ray's suggestion on nailing that first position is to anchor the pinky on the 5th fret first; then it is easier to stretch the other digits to this almost impossible position.

As you mention, this tune starts off with that almost impossible stretch; and then gets harder. It's a great tune and kudos to you in trying to learn it. I'm anxious to hear you play it.

Thanks, Richard
- Rated: 20 ↑
Sep 30, 2008 10:02 a.m. gresco:

Thanks for the reply, Richard. It's comforting to hear that even a player of your caliber has difficulty with this song. It probably means I'm way out of my league in attempting to master it. But it's too compelling a challenge to quit now.

I've adapted another, albeit incorrect, method of getting past the opening licks, (which are used 7 times during the song.) I basically bar at the 5th fret and hammer the 7th fret, 4th string, then finger pick the 3rd and 2nd strings, 5th fret alternately. Then the next phrasing I cover the 4th fret, 4th string, again hammer the 7th fret, 4th string, alternate fingerpick the 3rd and 2nd strings, 5th fret. Next phrase, cover the 3rd fret, 4th string, again hammer the 7th fret, 4th string, etc.... Even that turns into a stretch, but is more manageable. It's still difficult for me to get all the notes to ring clear, but I'm gaining.

This way I can move on to the rest of the song which has it's own series of challenges. I made sort of a map so I can keep the sequence in order, and I came out with 24 segments, start to finish.

I've got most of the other fingering sorted out. Now it's a matter of execution. The dreaded execution! It's mind boggling to me that someone can play it completely through without missing notes, and look at ease doing it. Ray Cummins is a classic example of that. Smooth is an understatement. I've heard him described as having a light touch, and it shows in this song.

This song really emphasizes Chet's genious. Just further keeps me in awe the the man.
- Rated: 4 ↑
Sep 30, 2008 10:07 a.m. JimL:

A very good friend of mine, Gene Sloan, was the writer of Cascade. He was a long-time road player in the Leon Rhodes Country Jazz style, as well as Chets. He moved to Milwaukee from Nashville in the '80's, and worked with a local country group here. I was playing steel at the time, and we became friends. He never failed to knock me out every time he played. I was thrilled when Chet recorded Cascade, and I know he was as well, even though we'd lost touch at that time. He played it on all the gigs he did while he lived here. Don't know what happened to him, but I'd like to see him again.regards, JimL
- Rated: 4 ↑
Sep 30, 2008 10:07 a.m. JimL:

This post has been deleted
- Rated: 45 ↑
Sep 30, 2008 10:25 a.m. Richard Hudson:

JimL, thanks for your informative post. I have often wondered about Gene Sloan and would like to know more about him. To mention him in the same breath with Leon Rhodes speaks volumes for him; and of course he wrote a killer song. If you find out more about him, I would be interested in knowing.

gresco, as you know, determination is 99.9% of the battle. I'm sure you will learn the tune and play it well in time. It's just a physical thing with me. I have a problem that won't go away with my left wrist and doing that stretch is just something I cannot do. I would encourage you though to work on doing that first position as Ray did it; and of course Chet also. The notes will ring clearer; and the stretch can be done with enough practice unless there is a physical limitation. It will be a challenge; but you will have accomplished something very noteworthy when you have it.
- Rated: 43 ↑
Sep 30, 2008 10:32 a.m. Ric12string:

Gresco, you have selected quite an ambitious song. But, what a great song it is, indeed!

I had a similar experience to what you and Richard have both complained about. I was doing some chord fingerings that were quite a long stretch, over a repeated and lengthy period of time. I developed quite the tendonitis in my left wrist. It was very painful and I had to lay off the guitar for a couple of months as a result of it.

The physical therapist that I worked with recommended stretching exercises (I guess that the long stretches from the chords themselves weren't enough stretching!) as a part of any pre-playing warm-up.

For me, the lesson that I learned was that it wasn't worth the bit of chord workout that I was doing to have to give up the guitar for a couple of months.
- Rated: 11 ↑
Oct 1, 2008 12:27 a.m. aussiepete:

Gresco, you remind me of myself and most other mere mortal guitarists. We know what we want to do but can't. Check out this website:

http://www.guitarprinciples.com/

I have incorporated the book "principles of correct practice for guitar" into my playing for the last year or so with fantastic results.

Once we hit our natural ability level as players (and that's different for everyone) we stay there butting our heads against that level. This book gets you to break through that barrier.

The author and owner of the website is there always on the forum and there's a good group of people all making progress. It's the best 30 bucks I ever spent.

I'm only plugging this site as it seems like one of the answers to your playing ambitions. I don't get any kickbacks or anything
- Rated: 20 ↑
Oct 1, 2008 1:11 a.m. gresco:

aussie, I'm familiar with Jamie, and in fact receive her email every week. I haven't purchased her program, but have benefitted from her weekly tips. Maybe her principals would help me move forward.

Thanks. (Sounds like you've been a good student.)

Thanks to you all for replying, and to you Richard for your words of encouragement. Since reading it I've been working on the opening licks. I can get the last three parts, but the first is still painfully about 1/2 inch too far away. My short fingers have never been too much of an issue until now. Maybe a shorter scale guitar would help?
- Rated: 40 ↑
Oct 20, 2008 3:09 p.m. JC:

Hey gresco, how are you coming long with Cascade? Since you posted this i've had a go at it myself, but being an ear player i'm having all sorts of trouble.Its a nightmare!

"Maybe a shorter scale guitar would help"

Yeah, it would be real easy on a 325 Rick
- Rated: 32 ↑
Oct 20, 2008 6:34 p.m. Bryan K.:

Cascade is a great tune, and one of my favorites.

Hey JimL, I met Gene once or twice thru my dad at a jam party in the Milwaukee area back around 1979.

Do you know any of these guys from Milwaukee: Jack williams, Red Deacon, Dick Smith, Roger Kanieski, Ron Bryant, Roger Kent?
- Rated: 20 ↑
Oct 20, 2008 9:11 p.m. gresco:

JC, I have been playing the song several times daily. I'm getting more and more comfortable with it, and my wife actually passed by the door and said: "Sounds Good." (I'm surprised she's not sick of hearing it.) Aside from the opening lick, there are two other licks I struggle with. The rest of it is almost second nature now. (Almost.) It's like golf...you break 90 one day and the next day you shoot 115. Some days the mojo is working, other days it's on vacation. My goal is to get comfortable enough to post a clip here on the GDP. Ya know...something tangible, not just endless rhetoric from me.

I can appreciate what you're going through in trying to learn it "by ear." Without the Guitar Pro program I would never had come this far with it. I would watch Ray Cummins' video over and over until I came up with a version that sounded good, but was structurally way wrong. What you can't possibly get, while watching him, is the open strings. There are a lot of open strings alternating with fretted notes on the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th,11th & 12th frets. If you watch closley, it looks like he's sliding real fast along the fretboard, and the notes don't sound like that's what he's picking. That's when he picks open strings, giving him time to move to other positions. Pure genious on Chet's part. I would be happy to email you the file which shows notation and tabs (I can only use tabs) but I think you have to have Gutar Pro to open the file. If you have Guitar Pro, it will play the song and you watch the cursor hit the notes. BIG advantage. If you're interested, PM me and maybe we can work something out.

Thanks for replying.
- Rated: 4 ↑
Oct 21, 2008 12:28 a.m. JimL:

Hey Brian, I did know Jack williams and Red Deacon.Gene was working with Jack when I knew him, Red still is out and about. Those were great days when every club had a live band, and there was plenty of work for all of us. Sadly, as we all know, those days are gone. regards, JimL
- Rated: 18 ↑
Oct 21, 2008 1:17 a.m. Gretschington:

Richard Hudson said: I started trying to learn this song a couple of years ago and almost died in pain with my left wrist. I'm talking about keeping me awake at night pain. My first bout with it had me out of action for almost a month. Seriously. That first position is a real stretcher. After the wrist got better, I was dumb enough to try it again and once again...Anyway, that is one tune I will never be able to play because of that first stretch.
Have you considered picking up a guitar with a shorter scale length?
- Rated: 45 ↑
Oct 21, 2008 9:44 a.m. Richard Hudson:

Well, my new CGP is shorter scale. I guess I need to quit wimping out and give it a try on that one because it really is a great song.
- Rated: 20 ↑
Oct 21, 2008 11:11 a.m. gresco:

Richard, I know your feeling about playing that first lick formation properly, and I agree. But, in the interest of learning the WHOLE song, and not writing it off because of that one lick, I've developed an altenate pattern. The first alternate I used, as I explained in the earlier post, was not a good choice...using no open strings. It often sounded muted....the notes not ringing. Now I'm holding the C formation in the first fret, picking the third string open, hammering it on the second fret with the second finger, picking the second string, first fret, then picking the first string open. I get more open strings this way and the notes ring better. Then quickly place the pinky on the fourth string, fourth fret, and continue the proper way. That stretch is do-able for me. This is a loose description of how I'm doing it. I hope you can decypher it. You've probably already figured it out for yourself, anyway.

This way I've been able to progress with the song, which still has other challeges to deal with. The more I work with this song, the more my respect for Chet increases, (also Ray Cummins, Richard Smith.) They handle this song like "fallin' off a log." There is also a gent on YouTube who calls himself Chet1952 who does a good job with this, and other Chet's songs. I'll post that link in my next post.

Again, it's encouraging to me as a mediocre picker, to see you experts struggling with this song. It's a further testiment to Chet's genious.

Keep on a pickin'
- Rated: 20 ↑
Oct 21, 2008 11:17 a.m. gresco:

Here's chet1952 playing Cascade. another Cascade
- Rated: 45 ↑
Oct 21, 2008 12:04 p.m. Richard Hudson:

chet1952 is Jean Francois from France. I know him only through email and his youtube videoes - and I guess he the same by me. He is perhaps the smoothest I have ever heard that I have never heard of. He also has a good teaching video on how to do Chet's super lick. He's really a fine player. I'd like to meet him sometime.

Richard
- Rated: 20 ↑
Oct 21, 2008 1:06 p.m. gresco:

I too have exchanged emails with Jean, and he's a real nice guy. He does Swedish Rhapsody and offered to tutor me on the ending lick. I call it a "sour lick" that sounds sooo good. Again, I do a version of it that sounds okay, but I know it's not right. It's another one of Chet's signatures that I can't grasp. Jean seems to get into Chet's head and figures these things out. I believe, from what he's said, that he picks it all up by ear. Pretty amazing.
- Rated: 40 ↑
Oct 21, 2008 2:05 p.m. JC:

I wish my ear was that good!

gresco,sadly i have not got the Guitar Pro program,but thanks for the offer

I can only read tabs too,and another problem i have is that i don't use a thumb pick, just a flat for me,doesn't help!
- Rated: 20 ↑
Oct 21, 2008 5:00 p.m. gresco:

JC, I just converted the Guitar Pro file to a PDF file. I should now be able to email it to you. It's a 7 page sheet music file showing both tabs and notations. If you want, just PM me and I'll reply back sending you the file. You'll be surprised at some of the things that Chet did in this song.

Also I believe you can play this song using your "hybrid picking" method with a flat pick...just a slight disadvantage.

Cheers
- Rated: 18 ↑
Oct 22, 2008 5:28 a.m. Gretschington:

Richard Hudson said: Well, my new CGP is shorter scale. I guess I need to quit wimping out and give it a try on that one because it really is a great song.

Yeah, it's definitely an amazing song. This was my first exposure to it and I'm really impressed. It's a major challenge, for sure.

I'm a big proponent of using the right tool for the job; no matter how high of a quallity the tool is, if it doesn't feel good in your hand for a particularly precision task, get one that does. If the tool you used knocked you out of the game for a month, I'd pick a different tool for the next attempt. Usually I can play anything I know on any scale length guitar, but there are SOME songs that kind of demand a shorter or longer scale length for things to "lay right" for me. Like attempting to play Frank Zappa xylophone solos on guitar, for example.
- Rated: 40 ↑
Oct 22, 2008 8:15 a.m. JC:

PM sent gresco
- Rated: 20 ↑
Oct 22, 2008 10:22 a.m. gresco:

JC, PDF emailed to you.

Have fun!!
- Rated: 12 ↑
Oct 23, 2008 4:41 p.m. Andy:

Nice -- Ray is playing crazy light! Hardly picking the strings. His piezo must have been turned up to 11 :)

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