Vintage Gretsch Guitars

58 6120 Fraud and Fraud Label Alert

1

NFI.

range" rel="nofollow">https://reverb.com/item/106...

Oddly done mish-mash Annie conversion, probably done in the bad old days before Ed Ball's or Jay Scott's books. #28942 is from a batch of '58 Annies, but the neck may have been from a later shallower Annie due to the extra neck heel binding. Original label #'s were probably bleached out. Someone went to a lot of trouble to get it wrong. Sheesh.

2

Wow... that label is a blatant forgery! This seller is either clueless to the fact that his guitar is a fake, or else he's got huge balls!

3

I just broke the news to the seller... we'll see how he takes it.

4

Ed, what in particular about that label makes it obvious that it is a forgery? Educate us, mate!

5

Orange/grey labels featured a very dark black narrow sans serif typeface machine stamped with almost no space after the "serial no." Model # is hand-stamped with a blue serif typeface smaller and narrower than than the earlier blue label and tends to fade to almost nothing. The scrupulous forger needs to buy Ed's book.

6

They've got several pages of what I consider overpriced guitars on their site, including a rather normal Ric 4001 listed for about twice what a new one goes for.

Perhaps more PT Barnum than outright scam, but we await reaction to Mr KC's missive.

7

Ed, what in particular about that label makes it obvious that it is a forgery? Educate us, mate!

– Ric12string

Here's a real Gretsch label from the period... note the style of type used for the serial number.

8

And here's the fugazzi label from this supposed 6120. Note the style of type used on it's serial number. It's obviously a "stamp" like the model number... which is wrong on a Gretsch label.

9

Maybe it's the picture but that looks kind of like a Baldwin era upper bout or a 90s model.

10

I have looked carefully at the binding. What it appears to be the case is that someone "painted over" the white binding with a plastic based liquid white compound that is used to "touch up" scratch marks on white porcelain kitchen sinks. I believe this to be so because I used this same plastic based liquid white compound to "touch up" the binding on a 1962 Jet Firebird project guitar that I have. What I'm suggesting is that the original binding on this guitar probably has some cracks in it, maybe even bits and pieces of it missing and this compound does a decent job of making the old beat up look almost new

11

Wow. That's not even kind of convincing.

12

And here's the fugazzi label from this supposed 6120. Note the style of type used on it's serial number. It's obviously a "stamp" like the model number... which is wrong on a Gretsch label.

– kc_eddie_b

fonts on the printed label are off too

13

fonts on the printed label are off too

– jps1965

Good Eyes jps1965! The whole label is a fraud. Look at the white space on the three printed rounded line corners of the label. Notice how the fraud has irregular spacing while in the original the spacing is the same.

Also, on the originals you can often see evidence of preforations on the sides as the original labels came from rolls; the fraud doesn't.

Also, the orange dots. I just checked on my '58 and '59 Clippers. On real labels the orange is printed first, then the black and halftone is printed over the orange. In the above fraud, there are breaks in the lines for the orange dots.

See in the original where the three black lines go over the orange block that houses "THE FRED." In the fraud, they don't.

Toggle your eyes back and forth from the "Gretsch" logo on the two labels and the differences between the horizontal and vertical lines -- as well as the spaces between -- become apparent. This is the work of someone who knows how to use Illustrator but doesn't know jack about typography.

I'll be carrying a magnifying lens in my guitar check-out kit from now on. The really scary thing is, if the fraudsters had taken a little more trouble to get it right they might have gotten away with it.

14

Maybe it's the picture but that looks kind of like a Baldwin era upper bout or a 90s model.

– Toxophilite

That occurred to me too, but I thought at first this was just a trick of the light. Baldwins didn't have any lining on the inside connecting the sides to the top and back (this also happened with a few '60's Gretshes) as was the case with the early Modern Gretsches. When the Moderns went to more correct thin woods Gretsch began to use kerfed linings -- which vintage never did (well, kinda sorta before '55). The first version Custom Shop '55 6120 had the correct unkerfed linings and it sounded and played most like a vintage Gretsch. I saw a shot recently of the inside of one of the Setzer Tribute models (at least that's what it was being sold as...) and it had kerfed linings, incorrect for any '59 Gretsch.

15

I reported it to Reverb, giving them a link to this thread. Got a response:

The Listings Standards Crew (Reverb.com) Mar 1, 2:06 PM CST

Hey David,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. It looks like this was an internal data mix-up on our end of things; we apologize. Should be squared away now. Thanks again, and have a great day!

Best,

16

I reported it to Reverb, giving them a link to this thread. Got a response:

The Listings Standards Crew (Reverb.com) Mar 1, 2:06 PM CST

Hey David,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. It looks like this was an internal data mix-up on our end of things; we apologize. Should be squared away now. Thanks again, and have a great day!

Best,

– DavidE

Gotta say that Reverb took this down fairly quickly. If it had been on eBay (haven't checked) it would likely still be up for sale.


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