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50's capacitors - so what's the magic?

- Rated: 27 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 3:16 p.m. Deke Martin:

All my guitar playing life I've never used the pots on a guitar. I've always run the volumes and tones flat-out and controlled the overall tone via the amp. This is due, in part, to the fact that I've never heard a tone pot worth a damn. I can't see the point in rolling off that crisp hi-tone and muddying up the sound before the amp has a chance to do anything.

The '58 Clipper I bought from Jack a while back has a tone pot like I've never heard before. When operated, it actually boosts the bass or treble, depending which way you turn it. This means you can go from a deep, throbbing, almost bass guitar-like tone, through some truly sweet bell-like tones, up to a screaming treble that'll make your ears bleed.

The '56 I just bought from Jay is the same, maybe even better. These guitars are TONE MONSTERS! Gone are the days when I have to settle for 1 of 3 colours- I've got a whole palette now! It's like I'm playing with full active circuitry, but in a good way.

So what is it about those circuits that are so magical? I'm assuming it's all about the caps used, but what specifically? Value? Material?

Any the $64,000 question: are they still available today?

NB: Because the script logo Jet came to me with the loom in pieces, rather than screw around with it I just put a new TV Jones loom in instead, so that could be why I never noticed this phenomenon with that guitar. I'll have to ask the new owner to let me know if he ever puts the original loom back in...
- Rated: 30 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 3:27 p.m. JazzBoxJunky:

Those are stacked 1 meg tone pots, and yes, they are a great thing indeed.
- Rated: 42 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 4:18 p.m. tartan phantom:

You can still buy this kind of tone control. Fender sells it as an aftermarket mod. Just Google "Fender TBX tone control".

Or get one here:

Fender TBX tone control
- Rated: 13 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 5:40 p.m. riz:

As far as 50's caps go, the magic is that they're old and off spec, and made from different materials that modern ones in many cases. I doubt dyna's are new to you, but they love a tone control like nothing I've ever experienced.
- Rated: 18 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 6:36 p.m. DCBirdMan:

Hey Deke is back on the scene...

There are some dudes that turn their amp up all the way and have the guitar controls way down.... not my scene, for sure.

Most tone controls just roll off treble. Some pots these days are so bad they are nowhere near linear... more just on and off.

Volume controls roll off a little bit of brightness... like on Fender, I always liked that when you rolled off some volume coming off a lead, it would also take out a minor amount of treble. There is some brightener cap mod for Fender guitars I used to have done that minimized the effect.

But the big Fender to Gretsch conversion started for me about 6 years ago, and after going thru an Annie, Gent, and Bird, I found the 2 pickup Hi Lo Tenny was best for me... even more so than the more exotic single pickup red Tenny
- Rated: 14 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 7:00 p.m. reverb11:

tartan, isn't that TBX tone control a stacked pot? I'm pretty sure that it is... I think you just need a standard 1 meg pot... you can get them from Allparts or Partsis Parts (In fact, you should be able to find them from a number of sources pretty easily)...
- Rated: 42 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 7:35 p.m. tartan phantom:

reverb11 said: tartan, isn't that TBX tone control a stacked pot? I'm pretty sure that it is

Exactly. See post #2 above. Gretsch used this stacked pot configuration on several models in the mid 50's-- including the '55 White Falcon, '55 Country Club, and a few others. Obviously this only affected certain models that actually had a tone pot instead of a mud switch. Gretsch actually called it a "smooth-curve bass-treble" control. Probably another one of Jimmie Webster's ideas.

The modern TBX control is exactly the same thing. The pot values may be different, but the concept is that of dual ganged pots-- one wired as a bass-cut and one as a treble-cut-- with a center-detent. Center is flat, full clockwise is full bass-cut, and full counterclockwise is full treble-cut.

A simple 1 meg pot can't do that by itself.
- Rated: 48 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 8:38 p.m. BillyZoom:

They used it on the Chet models. Gretsch still uses it on their vintage Chets. I always bypassed the .002 cap so I could get full output. I you like that setup, I'll bet Gretsch would sell you the dual pot and cap. The way it works is, there's a .002 in series which roll off bass. Turning the knob counter clockwise bypasses that cap, and adds a .02 to ground which rolls of treble. I don't care for it because you never get full output from the pickups, but that's just my preference. I bypassed that cap on both my '57 6120, and my '57 6121. I also had a '56 Silver Jet which had the dual pot, but only the .02. One pot was a series resistor, so it sounded like you were boosting bass, rather than just rolling off treble. I disconnected that one too. BZ
- Rated: 39 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 9:02 p.m. JBGretschguy:

Those old caps were "paper in wax" in construction. Many guys swear by them.

Deke, could you please send me your postal address?
- Rated: 97 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 10:45 p.m. Setzer:

Would this be a version of it too? I put one in my 57 Duo Jet. I'm still getting used to it. I think either my cap or resistor is bad. I need to go back in and check them I got it from GDPer Jimmy Peters(57 Caddy Green Jet). He also sent me a brand new stack pot and cap/resistors. I may substitute those in and see if it makes a difference.
- Rated: 42 ↑
Jul 3, 2008 11:03 p.m. tartan phantom:

That's it exactly.
- Rated: 27 ↑
Jul 4, 2008 1:43 a.m. Deke Martin:

Thanks guys, that all very interesting.

I had no idea these tone pots we stacked, seems like a great idea. I might do that to my Tele...
- Rated: 42 ↑
Jul 4, 2008 2:09 a.m. tartan phantom:

BillyZoom said: I don't care for it because you never get full output from the pickups, but that's just my preference.

Good point Billy. In the center position, each pot is actually turned to its halfway point, so there is always some bleeding of the signal to ground. I didn't think about that.
- Rated: 12 ↑
Jul 4, 2008 1:41 p.m. guitarcapo:

Maybe it would be good with a very hot pickup.
- Rated: 6 ↑
Jul 4, 2008 2:11 p.m. berndog:

I have changed both my Les Paul and My Strats to the following

rs guitar works pots and oil tone caps. They are excellent. My Les Pauls volumn and tone caps where like light switches almost on and off. Now I can play volumn on 2 tone on 2 no mud great sound.

The tone knob actually works, every number is noticably different.

On my strat I tried both the vintage and the modern oil tone cap. I prefered the modern as the vintage was a little to dark sounding.

google rs guitar works they sell kits for guitars. Very good quality pots.
- Rated: 27 ↑
Jul 5, 2008 6:08 a.m. Deke Martin:

Guitarcapo, this would make perfect sense. One thing I did notice about my old Duo Jet was how damn hot the pickups were, kind of too hot really.

If they were meant to have the stacked arrangement discussed here that would make them much more controllable and in keeping with what you would imagine.
- Rated: 18 ↑
Jul 5, 2008 11:39 a.m. jimmy peters --oldest fart:

THE 50S CAPS. WERE NOT ONLY PAPER, THEY WERE POLARIZED--IF YOU PUT THEM IN THE WRONG WAY-UGH--

GOOD LUCK JIMMY PETERS
- Rated: 115 ↑
Jul 5, 2008 12:04 p.m. wenzel:

Setzer and Tartan, what does this stacked pot mod actually do? I'm confused... Thanks.
- Rated: 42 ↑
Jul 5, 2008 1:58 p.m. tartan phantom:

wenzel said: Setzer and Tartan, what does this stacked pot mod actually do? I'm confused... Thanks

Chris, here is an explanation in a nutshell-- This is for the Fender TBX, but the Gretsch dual-ganged tone pot works on the same principle:

Fender TBX tone control
- Rated: 83 ↑
Jul 6, 2008 12:54 a.m. Mark Synchro:

Wenzel said: what does this stacked pot mod actually do?
Have you ever seen that web site where the guy explains various stomp boxes as if there were tiny monkeys inside turing knobs? Believe it not, there really is (or at least was) such a site and it was actually pretty informative.

With that as my inspiration I will attempt to explain this in simian terms: Imagine that you had a guitar with two tone knobs, one that set the level of treble and the other that set the level of bass. Now, imagine, if you will, that you had a trained monkey to help you set your tone. You start out with both tone controls set to "5". If you turn the treble control up to "6" the trained monkey automatically turns the bass control down to "4". If you turn the bass up to "7" the monkey sets the treble at "3" . . . and on and on.

Now, if you have two potentiometers connected by one shaft and wired them in opposition to one another and so that when you added bass the treble would be cut and vice versa you could save a lot on monkey food not to mention that nasty job of cleaning it's cage.

Besides that, monkeys can get fleas and you could get sick from just playing a guitar with a tone monkey so for the good of the public's health the stacked tone control was developed. Unfortunately, many thousands of monkeys are now deprived a means of support but whatcha gonna do?
- Rated: 48 ↑
Jul 7, 2008 11:17 p.m. BillyZoom:

One pot and cap cut the highs, the other pot and cap cut the lows, and they work in opposite directions, so turning it up cuts the bass, turning it down cuts the highs. Turning it halfway cuts a little of each. There is no actual flat setting, and it cuts part of your signal no matter what. I'm better with schematics than with monkeys, so that's the simplest explanation I can offer.
- Rated: 4 ↑
Jul 8, 2008 2:15 a.m. happydog:

But if we could teach monkeys to read schematics...

...they'd probably still do it better than I can.
- Rated: 27 ↑
Jul 8, 2008 2:24 a.m. Deke Martin:

Billy, that's what I assumed everyone meant, but the Fender TBX descriptions seem to differ slightly, so maybe I won't put one in the Tele after all.

For instance, the link that Tartan Phantom posted says:

"In the middle position eg. 5, the tone control is at a 10 relative to how most tone controls read. In other words, it is bypassed. Now, when you turn it to 10, you cut the bass and effectively increase the prominence of the treble in your tone.

Conversely, turned to 0, the TBX sounds just like a conventional tone control turned all the way down. The nice thing is that Fender makes these such that the potentiometer finds a little resistance grove at 5, so you know exactly where the middle position is when you turn it to that spot."

...which is not what my Gretsches sound like. This description says when the tone is turned to 0 is sounds like a conventional tone turned all the way down. Yuk.

Billy Zoom previously said: One pot was a series resistor, so it sounded like you were boosting bass, rather than just rolling off treble.

THAT is what I'm hearing, and I like it.
- Rated: 29 ↑
Jul 8, 2008 10:53 a.m. JackDaniels:

I will tell ya Deke, the only guitar I have sold in the last 10 years that I miss is the fat bodied clipper I sold you. That was a truly great sounding and playing guitar...both accoustically and electrified. I didn't use it much and really needed the money otherwise it would still be in my collection.

I am glad you are enjoying it.

JD
- Rated: 10 ↑
Jul 8, 2008 6:44 p.m. Zol:

Very cool. I never knew these existed. I love learning. Thx - Z

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