Miscellaneous Rumbles

It’s RRHOF Time Again!

26

Just let Todd in and send the rest home.

Unless like many here, he just isn’t interested.

– Powdog

...don't EVEN get me STARTED!

27

Oh come now, it's not that bad, by RRHoF standards.

I mean, where is King Crimson, of course, and XTC...but there are some names here I can get behind (accepting that the Cleveland gatekeepers' definition of "rock & roll" is pretty amorphous).

As far as I'm concerned, Kate Bush can be the Queen of Anything, anytime anyone wants to make her so. There needs to be a category above "Hall of Fame" for Kate. Queen of the Universe? I don't think of her as rock & roll, but see above, and hell yeah!

And if we wanted to make it The Year of the Woman (and why not?), Tina Turner, Dionne Warwick, The Go-Go’s, and - oksure - Carole King make out a nice roster.

Leaving out considerations of, uh, diversity which might admit some of the other names (about whom I know too little to pontificate), I submit that these rockers deserve at least as much recognition as the honor confers:

  • Devo
  • Foo Fighters
  • Iron Maiden
  • New York Dolls
  • Rage Against the Machine
  • Todd Rundgren

None of which replace any of those who richly deserve and have not been included. But to my memory, there are fewer outright howlers on this list than in ages past.

– Proteus

I could get behind Kate Bush.....

...ooPs...did that come out wrong???

28

What about Bill Withers... had a few soul/ballad type hits, ok -- and then? He got in ...somehow. May be a lot of behind the scenes politicking going on.

29

I think the Dolls were pretty big in NYC & England. I didn't really know who they were until about 20 years ago when Johnny Ramone told me about them. He said they always looked dirty.

30

...don't EVEN get me STARTED!

– Toddfan

The fact that he’s not (and Donna Summer IS) sums up it’s credibility IMO.

Awful cool to see all the stuff, though.

31

I think the Dolls were pretty big in NYC & England. I didn't really know who they were until about 20 years ago when Johnny Ramone told me about them. He said they always looked dirty.

– Billy Zoom

I always thought they sounded like sloppy Rolling Stones. I liked Sylvains big fat Gretsch and I really liked that my Dad hated them. He mimicked and made fun of “Trash” for about a month. In the end I think it kinda grew on him.

32

I think the Dolls were pretty big in NYC & England. I didn't really know who they were until about 20 years ago when Johnny Ramone told me about them. He said they always looked dirty.

– Billy Zoom

Johnny Ramone always looked pretty dirty himself. His jeans and shoes always looked crusty.

1,,,2,,,3,,,4!

33

The RRHOF is a Joke, especially when they added the Rap and Hip Hop groups in.

They should just include Spinal Tap ,and shut the doors.

34

Johnny Ramone always looked pretty dirty himself. His jeans and shoes always looked crusty.

1,,,2,,,3,,,4!

– LA_Manny

Yea, but what a haircut!

35

This is from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Website

NEW YORK (February 10, 2021) — The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Foundation announced today the following Nominees for 2021 Induction:

  • Mary J. Blige
  • Kate Bush
  • Devo
  • Foo Fighters
  • The Go-Go’s
  • Iron Maiden
  • JAY-Z
  • Chaka Khan
  • Carole King
  • Fela Kuti
  • LL Cool J
  • New York Dolls
  • Rage Against the Machine
  • Todd Rundgren
  • Tina Turner
  • Dionne Warwick

May as well let them all in. I'm not familiar with Fela Kuti so I looked him up. I don't know his music but he was an interesting character for sure!

– BuddyHollywood

BuddyHollywood wrote: " I'm not familiar with Fela Kuti so I looked him up"

So here's a question.....if you need to look up a nominee should they be in a Hall of Fame??????

36

Any kind of awards ceremony stinks.

37

Surely it's more prestigious to not be included/ inducted / induced?

38

The RRHOF is a Joke, especially when they added the Rap and Hip Hop groups in.

They should just include Spinal Tap ,and shut the doors.

– LA_Manny

Yeah Manny!

39

It's like punk never happened. I'll end up in the rest home with a mohawk and an anarchy tattoo, still shouting and cussin

40

The nominees/inductees aren't the problem. The name is the problem. It's an institution named after a genre that had died out 25 years before it was founded. If it was actually limited to rock and roll, they could have pretty much covered it in a few years worth of inductees. As for rap and hip hop, I think an argument could be made that a lot of those acts have more in common with actual rock and roll than bands like Metallica, yet nobody whinges about heavy metal bands being in a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

41

The nominees/inductees aren't the problem. The name is the problem. It's an institution named after a genre that had died out 25 years before it was founded. If it was actually limited to rock and roll, they could have pretty much covered it in a few years worth of inductees. As for rap and hip hop, I think an argument could be made that a lot of those acts have more in common with actual rock and roll than bands like Metallica, yet nobody whinges about heavy metal bands being in a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

– Afire

A very important fact, the vast majority of Hip Hop guys do not Play instruments , use Auto Tune software and have zero musical ability or knowledge. A basic Rock N Roll band is 4 guys playing guitar oriented music, which has basically nothing to do with RAP. The Only saving grace to RAP groups is that it is currently very popular, if they werent "making it rain" at the Strip Clubs, getting Arrested for Murder and Blowing $25 Million Dollars on surgically embedded forehead Jewelry they wouldnt be even be dared mentioned in the same breath as Buddy Holly or Led Zeppelin.

So try as you may to align them with Rock N Roll, but to justify including them in the RRHOF is laughable.

42

It's like punk never happened. I'll end up in the rest home with a mohawk and an anarchy tattoo, still shouting and cussin

– Vince_Ray

I agree , The entire 70's Era of Punk basically Influenced every single Rock Band form the 90's and beyond.

At least These Guys got it Right.

43

As a fan of many bands I don’t care about the RRHoF but l like this discussion. I can understand bands and musicians wanting to be in it but as a fan it doesn’t matter to me.

As far as rap and hip hop goes that doesn’t make sense for them to enter that category.

44

One can debate whether the artistic merit of some of the nominees are worthy of inclusion, but thats subjective and to each his own.

The real mystifying outlier , not in terms of talent (I'll giver her due props for the genre) but for category is Dionne Warwick, who wasnt even funk or soul or Rn B, much less rock n roll. She was firmly in that soft pop genre of early to mid 60s - Burt Bacharach collaborator and all. I'll put her in that same camp of Andy Williams, Engelbert, etc. ( I exclude Tom Jones from that genre, though he often gets categorized as such - but was, and is still, way more rock n roll ).

45

The nominees/inductees aren't the problem. The name is the problem. It's an institution named after a genre that had died out 25 years before it was founded. If it was actually limited to rock and roll, they could have pretty much covered it in a few years worth of inductees. As for rap and hip hop, I think an argument could be made that a lot of those acts have more in common with actual rock and roll than bands like Metallica, yet nobody whinges about heavy metal bands being in a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

– Afire

agreed on the rap /hip hop point. its dismissed by many, but the best rap/hip hop, as in any genre , has skill and conviction and urgency and importance. The worst of the genre, as in any genre, is low common denominator stuff.

Every single genre has its parallel continuum of practitioners , from gifted rebels with skill and vision to corporate phone-it- in whores. That is not style-dependent.

46

The real mystifying outlier, not in terms of talent (I'll giver her due props for the genre) but for category is Dionne Warwick, who wasnt even funk or soul or Rn B, much less rock n roll. She was firmly in that soft pop genre of early to mid 60s...

Still. Because Top 40 radio in the 60s was a more diverse compendium of contemporary popular music - in what we now consider different genres - than it now is, Dionne was heard by, bought by, and had influence on the same great mass of people who were also buying the "rock" of the day (however defined). The cross-pollinations were as profligate and fruitful then as now - but rather than being heard in separate and isolated bunkers across our now-fragmented media landscape, the "fusions" were heard by everyone. While that system served as a sampler, providing an entré to styles and artists you could then dig into more deeply, it also established something like common ground for all listeners.

None of that makes Dionne rock & roll, but it recognizes her as part of the same musical ecosystem where rock (usually, at the time, without the roll) were thriving. Same with Pet Clark and, I suppose, Simon & Garfunkel for that matter. Cowsills. Dozens of other acts which did just fine - and had an impact on the musical culture of the era - right along with the rockers. [See 5/4/68 Top 40 footnote]


In a very strict classification, "rock & roll" had kinda died away by the late 50s, and the pop that followed - till February 1963 - may have borrowed from it, but wasn't it, though Duane and surf kept the fires burning. Very early Brit Invasion wasn't quite really rock & roll either, though it clearly grew out of it and owed much to it. (As equally to R&B and mainstream pop.) By the mid-60s, I suppose, what we might now consider "rock" had developed, and some of it paid dues to rock & roll - but when it did so most obviously, it sounded downright nostalgic. And by the late 60s, "rock" - as distinct from "rock & roll" - was most definitely a thing, and a thing that largely prevailed for the following 20 years or so.

While "rock & roll" might be defined in very narrow stylistic terms, "rock" really can't - there are just too many influences and fusions and hyphenations. And yet the whole critical apparatus which grew up with the music (with Rolling Stone the self-appointed ultimate arbiter) decided, in a haphazard and catholic way, to call pretty much anything young(ish) people listened to "rock & roll."

So when, in the fulness of time, the now-self-anointed and convention-encrusted cadre of pompous pop pontificators deigned to create a shrine to the music of the back half of the 20th century (abrogating unto themselves the sole right and power of nomenclature and admission), they used the much wider and amorphous meaning of "rock & roll." If they had seriously intended to enshrine just "rock & roll," as it was originally understood...they could have been done with inductions in a very few years.

As it is, the term means nothing - or rather, whatever that same smug, haughty, self-righteous critical tradition which grew from Rolling Stone says it means, at any particular time. From the beginning, they have ignored, repressed, and denigrated whole subgenres within the obvious musical heritage of rock because, from whatever half-baked self-proclaimed notion of "authenticity" - or smarmy-earnest attempt to honor its solely-American "roots" - they just aren't considered cool. Where's surf? Where's rockabilly in its post-70s revival form? Where was southern rock? Where was prog? (Both finally have a little representation.) At the same time, they've admitted whole genres which aren't very rock to me.

Given how wide they've thrown the doors (and I really don't mind that), it's just that the name of the place is all wrong. It should be the Rock & Pop Hall of Fame, or something that represents the obvious missions of (to be cynical) keeping up with what sells in recorded contemporary music and (to be more charitable) representing the broad streams of music in the popular market.

So - ignoring the name of the place and accepting its wide reach - the current nominees look OK to me. They don't have to be "rock" anymore, they just have to have had an impact and/or been influential in the development of their current or eddy in the wide river of popular music. The Hall regularly overlooks some particular artists we'd like to see (each of us with his own grievances), and recognizes some we think undeserving.

We all have self-curated Halls of Fame in our own heads anyway. If the RRHoF intends to anoint artists as worthy of recognition and representation into the future, better that it be more than fewer.

However it's defined, more music is better than less.


Here's what was on Top 40 radio, mid May 1968, when Dionne Warwick's "Do You Know the Way to San Jose" was mid-chart. Compared to current pop radio, it's a stunning - even baffling - variety show. And you might have been listening for the rock - or the show tunes and instrumentals - or the psychedelia - or the retroldies - or the soul, the funk, the blue-eyed soul, or the novelty tunes. Even the proto-punk/proto-metal yawp of Blue Cheer. (Right on the same chart with "Love is Blue" and "The Unicorn," fergawdsake.) But in the process, you heard everything, and had a chance to stretch your ears.

  • 1 HONEY –•– Bobby Goldsboro (United Artists)-7 (4 weeks at #1) (1)
  • 2 CRY LIKE A BABY –•– The Box Tops (Mala)-10 (2)
  • 3 YOUNG GIRL –•– The Union Gap Featuring Gary Puckett (Columbia)-10 (2)
  • 4 LADY MADONNA –•– The Beatles (Capitol)-7 (4)
  • 5 TIGHTEN UP –•– Archie Bell and the Drells (Atlantic)-6 (5)
  • 6 I GOT THE FEELIN’ –•– James Brown and the Famous Flames (King)-8 (6)
  • 7 COWBOYS TO GIRLS –•– The Intruders (Gamble)-7 (7)
  • 8 THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY –•– Hugo Montenegro, His Orchestra and Chorus (RCA Victor)-12 (8)
  • 9 A BEAUTIFUL MORNING –•– The Rascals (Atlantic)-4 (9)
  • 10 THE UNICORN –•– The Irish Rovers (Decca)-7 (10)
  • 11 IF YOU CAN WANT –•– Smokey Robinson and the Miracles (Tamla)-11 (11)
  • 12 DANCE TO THE MUSIC –•– Sly and the Family Stone (Epic)-13 (8)
  • 13 TAKE TIME TO KNOW HER –•– Percy Sledge (Atlantic)-8 (13)
  • 14 SUMMERTIME BLUES –•– Blue Cheer (Philips)-10 (14)
  • 15 THE BALLAD OF BONNIE AND CLYDE –•– Georgie Fame (Epic)-12 (7)
  • 16 AIN’T NO WAY –•– Aretha Franklin (Atlantic)-5 (16)
  • 17 LOVE IS ALL AROUND –•– The Troggs (Fontana)-11 (17)
  • 18 SWEET INSPIRATION –•– The Sweet Inspirations (Atlantic)-10 (18)
  • 19 (Sittin’ On) THE DOCK OF THE BAY –•– Otis Redding (Volt)-15 (1)
  • 20 SHOO-BE-DOO-BE-DOO-DA-DAY –•– Stevie Wonder (Tamla)-5 (20)
  • 21 DO YOU KNOW THE WAY TO SAN JOSE –•– Dionne Warwick (Scepter)-4 (21)
  • 22 (Sweet Sweet Baby) SINCE YOU’VE BEEN GONE –•– Aretha Franklin (Atlantic)-10 (5)
  • 23 FUNKY STREET –•– Arthur Conley (Atco)-8 (23)
  • 24 PLAYBOY –•– Gene and Debbe (TRX)-12 (17)
  • 25 AIN’T NOTHING LIKE THE REAL THING –•– Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell (Tamla)-4 (25)
  • 26 LA-LA MEANS I LOVE YOU –•– The Delfonics (Philly Groove)-14 (4)
  • 27 DELILAH –•– Tom Jones (Parrot)-8 (27)
  • 28 FOREVER CAME TODAY –•– Diana Ross and the Supremes (Motown)-8 (28)
  • 29 MIGHTY QUINN (Quinn the Eskimo) –•– Manfred Mann (Mercury)-10 (10)
  • 30 SOUL SERENADE –•– Willie Mitchell (Hi)-9 (30)
  • 31 U.S. MALE –•– Elvis Presley (RCA Victor)-7 (31)
  • 32 MRS. ROBINSON –•– Simon and Garfunkel (Columbia)-2 (32)
  • 33 TAKE GOOD CARE OF MY BABY –•– Bobby Vinton (Epic)-6 (33)
  • 34 MONY MONY –•– Tommy James and the Shondells (Roulette)-5 (34)
  • 35 LOVE IS BLUE –•– Paul Mauriat and His Orchestra (Philips)-18 (1)
  • 36 SCARBOROUGH FAIR (Canticle) –•– Simon and Garfunkel (Columbia)-10 (11)
  • 37 AME CALINE (Soul Coaxing) –•– Raymond Lefevre and His Orchestra (4 Corners)-11 (37)
  • 38 CAB DRIVER –•– The Mills Brothers (Dot)-15 (23)
  • 39 THE UNKNOWN SOLDIER –•– The Doors (Elektra)-6 (39)
  • 40 CALL ME LIGHTNING –•– The Who (Decca)-6 (40)
47

Popular Music Hall Of Fame. then someone else can open the Museums of Death Metal, Yacht Rock, and Great Bands From Manchester. to be that inclusive they'd also need more material on C&W, which by some lights has been the most popular genre in the US this century along with broadly defined "hip-hop."

48

These inductees didn't care to be part of the RRHoF and I don't just mean The Sex Pistols --

49

if they werent "making it rain" at the Strip Clubs, getting Arrested for Murder and Blowing $25 Million Dollars on surgically embedded forehead Jewelry

Yeah because "rock" stars have never done any of those things, they just generally have the privilege of being white when they act out.

And I hate to break it to you, but someone's playing the instruments on those hip hop tracks, they just don't get their names on the album covers.

I get it, you don't like rap, but let's not pretend someone like Jay Z or Dr. Dre hasn't had as much influence on popular music and culture as Led Zeppelin or Buddy Holly.

50

And I hate to break it to you, but someone's playing the instruments on those hip hop tracks, they just don't get their names on the album covers.

That’s because they don’t credit the musicians playing on the tracks they sampled.

let's not pretend someone like Jay Z or Dr. Dre hasn't had as much influence on popular music and culture

Well that’s the problem. Millennials have been mislead to believe this is music.


Register Sign in to join the conversation