Miscellaneous Rumbles

Is It Just Me, Or Is This Happening At A Dizzying Pace? (No Guitar …

126

Hey Slim, you're right, the salesmen are worse than the techs, for sure.

Your Daughters manager should have handled that differently.Tell her there are more than one places to be a server and leave there.

127

Flirting can lead to unwanted results. -- Wabash Slim

Nope, I don't agree in the least with this.

When a woman is flirtatious, that is not an invitation to start groping her, or worse. When a woman says "No," then that is the end of the discussion, regardless of how she is dressed or whether the man thought that her flirtatious personality was somehow an invitation for more than that.

128

I'm with Ric12. Flirting doesn't give anyone a pass to do anything at all. It's just flirting. Keep yer pants on.

129

Wow. Clearly there is some work to do,...

– chrisp2

Yep. Education. As George Costanza makes clear a page or two back, sometimes it's harder than one might think to know what is or isn't acceptable behavior.

130

only because I am challenging you example as being dangerous, counter productive to the original discussion, and an example of how you can even be subconsciously part of the problem.

– powerjet

I'm not sure where you're coming from.

131

100% agreed with Baxter and Rick12.

LOVE flirting, even as a comparative dotard. And it has always been just that. Fun, with everyone completely in control to stop and re-start, or not, if and when BOTH parties see fit.

If a guy feels abusively teased by flirting, then that is a reason for the guy to stop. Not a reason for the woman to now owe you attention.

Not complicated, never has been.

The angry unfulfilled man fits nowhere in this picture.

Chris

132

Yep. Education. As George Costanza makes clear a page or two back, sometimes it's harder than one might think to know what is or isn't acceptable behavior.

– Afire

Actually I meant the opposite.

It is not that hard at all.

I meant there are some remarkably problematic seething views that bubble up on the subject.

133

Flirting can lead to unwanted results. -- Wabash Slim

Nope, I don't agree in the least with this.

When a woman is flirtatious, that is not an invitation to start groping her, or worse. When a woman says "No," then that is the end of the discussion, regardless of how she is dressed or whether the man thought that her flirtatious personality was somehow an invitation for more than that.

– Ric12string

I'm not saying it's right, but it can and does happen. Some idiot thinks because a woman acts nice to him that it's an open invitation. I'm a firm believer in "No means no!" Some would construe it as a challenge.

Conversely, there are teases out there. I also believe that if you play with fire, you could get burned.

134

I know this is off topic, but congress is rushing to get a new tax law thru before the holidays. It will affect all of us.

Each of us needs to seriously look into the house and senate bills and decide for ourselves if we need to contact our representatives either yea or nay.

....just a heads up.

135

Haven't read much, but what should get to most is the cuts for the middle class come with a hard-coded expiry date but not so much for the high earners. They get to keep their breaks in perpetuity.

Hardly seems fair. Definitely worth a look, regardless of political leaning.

136

Actually I meant the opposite.

It is not that hard at all.

I meant there are some remarkably problematic seething views that bubble up on the subject.

– chrisp2

I know that. The Costaza clip was intended to illustrate the absurdity of the repeated assertions in this thread that it's just too damn hard to know what is or isn't acceptable in these crazy modern times.

137

It's not unusual for a waitress in my area to greet you with a Hi Honey, or Hi Sweetheart, what can I get you.

Does this mean that it's my "lucky day". Yes it is, as I know that I'll get good, friendly, we want to make you feel like it's home, service. Now the food, depends on who's behind the grill. lol

Just typical southern hospitality. Nothing more, nothing less.

138

I think this matter is quite difficult.

I don't want to downplay the #metoo phenomenon. On the other hand, people like to act as a lynch mob. Find someone to hang.

When I use a clipper to buzz the few hairs off my head, some girls like to rub stubble. On a good day some girls slap me on the ass. I think that's way okay. Sometimes there is a mini hug when we had a success at work. But I sure try to be very careful when it comes to a subject like this. Some guy tries to kiss women on the mouth for their birthday. He's in the blackbook of coffee break rumours alright. I'd feel awfull if women had a reason to mark me that way.

But the spectrum is very wide. From inappropriate whistling to rape. Is Kevin Spacey as bad as Weinstein? I just don't know. It seems people want to see anyone swingin' high from the gallows. I have no mercy for bastards but someone who made a small mistake might not deserve public punishment.

139

I'm not sure where you're coming from.

– BuddyHollywood

Buddy this is a direct quote I am pulling from you on page 4 of this thread... you can go back and read it if you dont remember writing it

"I was in an almost famous band in the mid 1990's that toured the United States. I've seen, met and hung out with the best groupies in every city during those few years. I have to say, I had a skewed version of women after that. When this lifestyle and sex, alcohol and drugs become the daily normal it can rewire your brain. It took me a while and a realization that my mom and my sister were not like these girls so that means there must be others.

I don't believe Donald Trump ever had to go look for sex. I was not shocked at what he said when the Billy Bush conversation became public. I've seen it first hand. If you're a celebrity certain girls will throw themselves at you. It happened to me and I wasn't even rich or famous."

Here is an article worth reading that may shed some light on my point that very specifically this quote is so dangerous and flawed that it requires the look in the mirror I keep talking about. It is toxic amongst men and how they look at women. "It took me a while and a realization that my mom and my sister were not like these girls so that means there must be others."

https://broadly.vice.com/en...

140

I was raised to believe that there are some things that one just does not do, so I just don't do them. It's nice because when I'm looking in a mirror, I can look myself in the eye and not be ashamed. ( At least not about that.)

It doesn't matter if there might be a small percentage of the female population that would be receptive to some middle-aged man waggling his wiener at them. It doesn't matter if you're rich and powerful and can probably (at least until recently) get away with it. And no, they weren't just asking for it.

Imagine if someone were to treat your wife, your daughter, your sister, or your mother that way.

I would have at least expected Garrison Keillor to understand that.

141

Howard Mortman, the communications director of C-SPAN, notes that in 1994 Keillor spoke at the National Press Club in D.C. and said, among other things, " A world in which there is no sexual harassment at all is a world in which there will not be any flirtation." The crowd was quiet.Garrison Keillor

142

Sometimes sex is a meaningful display of mutual affection and love between two people who care deeply for each other. Other times, it's a transaction.

143

So far, only Keillor has described “what he did” - and he started talking before the news came out. If that’s all there is, it seems in no sense a species of “sexual harassment.”

MPR isn’t saying anything else, isn’t describing the incident (or more, if there are any) in any way, claiming something about victim confidentiality. That won’t wash. If it can destroy a man’s career and legacy, it can be made public.

No matter the tenor of the times, the nature of the offenses, or the current state of gender status and relations, none of us can pass judgment - on ANY of these men - without knowing what the charges are.

That’s what has disturbed me about this whole depressing train wreck of a thead. In a rush to self-righteously come off well in a discussion about relative gender power relationships and what brutish retrograde empowered pigs men are (on one hand) and what deceptive teasing craven vixen women are (on the other), we’ve lumped all offenses from attitudinal sexism and clumsy overtures toward familiarity to grabbing, drugging, and date rape together as if they were all the same thing. They’re not.

If underlying cultural attitudes are long overdue for revision (and they most certainly are), individuals should only be held accountable for their specific behaviors. (And when those behaviors are at worst tone-deaf to the current cultural zeitgeist - not rising to the status of sexual imposition or intentional harassment - and/or exhibited by people raised in a different milleu, and happening in the past, it’s hard to find even symbolic justice in seeing those people hoisted by society’s new petard.)

Generalities won’t work here. In an environment where an offhand comment, a misjudged joke, or a casual or incidental non-sexual touch are lumped in the same category with planned and intentional serial intimidation and sexual coercion, we need excruciating precision either to decide for ourselves how we would judge an individual’s behavior or how society should respond to that individual.

Please note I’m not defending “men”. A shift in attitude toward interpersonal equality and mutual respect, and away from explicit or implied male entitlement is long overdue. I don’t care who the icon is, what he’s contributed, or where the chips fall - if the person is revealed beyond reasonable doubt of offenses against others, let the person be accordingly punished. Let the punishment fit the crimes, both legally and personally.

And I don’t instinctively doubt accusers. We vet them for credibility - and what evidence they offer - and accept their testimony. More vetted accusers do add up to evidence of a pattern. Patterns begin to tell us who these people are in their darkest recesses. Shine the light.

I don’t personally know any of those accused in recent years, months, days. It’s not my job to pass judgment on them anyway. I believe Bill Cosby is probably who his many accusers say he is. The behavior alleged against others of the recently accused is pretty damning - and at least in all other cases something literal has been alleged by the accusers.

I don’t defend Garrison Keillor against all possible accusations. And I don’t defend him against what we know so far simply because I’ve enjoyed PHC. (Though when it comes down to it, I CAN separate the artist from the art if necessary - to a point.)

But we only have GK’s word on the incident he’s been pilloried for. MPR has essentially said “we submit to the world that GK is a bad man” without characterizing in any way what the accusations are - and the world has responded by casting him into the outer darkness.

That’s not right.

If there are specific accusations, let’s have them. Any trial based on such a general accusation would be considered an absurdist parody - especially with the only specific evidence being that offered by the accused. (And an earlier post that someone’s relative or acquaintance worked once with GK and he’s a “miserable human being” - offered without even an incidental one-sided anecdote to support it - is of course no evidence at all. It’s a cheap shot at third-hand character assassination by remote control.)

144

“This moment isn’t about a nation of confused men. It’s about a minority of men who choose to treat women alternately as walking sex objects or bothersome and potentially devious nags. It’s about a majority of Americans who give men a pass for all manner of bad behavior, because they assume men are entitled to behave badly but hold women to an entirely different standard.” Jill Filipovic

145

"Somebody told me" in the 60s that the town of Laguna Beach was gonna write a law saying young ladies can't wear skimpy swim suits while walking on the sidewalks along the main drag of the town. That the sight would burn into the consciousness of the male drivers causing their visual cortex to shut down momentarily while the memory of the view was being processed causing the effect to be like driving while texting on their cell phones.

Almost 60 years later I know it's a lie cuz we didn't have cell phones in the 1960s.

What isn't a lie is that yeah, it IS distracting! It's how we handle the distraction that matters.

146

That is the same argument that Islamic countries use to justify the chador and the burka --- that the sight of an uncovered female with her hair or face showing would cause any ordinary man to lose all control and inhibitions and thereby break down all conventions of civilization. (insert "eyeroll --- gimme-a-break" emoji here)

147

When you know just how central GK has been to Minnesota Public Radio for so long, the rapidity and finality with which they broke with him would seem to imply that there is more to the story than what GK has seen fit to share. They went from debating whether or not to rename the Fitzgerald Theater the Keillor Theater to "Garrison who?" in a heartbeat.

Once they have made that break, as is the case when any company terminates an employee in this type of situation, further comment from the company only serves to deepen any legal impact for the company. This is why the standard spokesperson response is "We do not comment on personnel matters."

The odds are good we will never know for certain what happened. It is the fact that Garrison Keillor, of all people, is in this situation at all continues to amaze me.

148

That is the same argument that Islamic countries use to justify the chador and the burka --- that the sight of an uncovered female with her hair or face showing would cause any ordinary man to lose all control and inhibitions and thereby break down all conventions of civilization. (insert "eyeroll --- gimme-a-break" emoji here)

– Parabar

AND... don't forget... anything that happens to the woman at that point is ALL HER FAULT.

-roll eyes-

149

Buddy this is a direct quote I am pulling from you on page 4 of this thread... you can go back and read it if you dont remember writing it

"I was in an almost famous band in the mid 1990's that toured the United States. I've seen, met and hung out with the best groupies in every city during those few years. I have to say, I had a skewed version of women after that. When this lifestyle and sex, alcohol and drugs become the daily normal it can rewire your brain. It took me a while and a realization that my mom and my sister were not like these girls so that means there must be others.

I don't believe Donald Trump ever had to go look for sex. I was not shocked at what he said when the Billy Bush conversation became public. I've seen it first hand. If you're a celebrity certain girls will throw themselves at you. It happened to me and I wasn't even rich or famous."

Here is an article worth reading that may shed some light on my point that very specifically this quote is so dangerous and flawed that it requires the look in the mirror I keep talking about. It is toxic amongst men and how they look at women. "It took me a while and a realization that my mom and my sister were not like these girls so that means there must be others."

https://broadly.vice.com/en...

– powerjet

OK Powerjet, this is ridiculous. What does this porn article have anything to do with what you perceive as my problem?

I was in my early 20s when I found myself in a band on tour with 80s metal band Warrant. I'm currently 49. This was a long time ago. I was young, naive and still finding myself. At that young age my perspective was that extremely beautiful women were almost so perfect that I was intimidated to even talk to them. This perspective of mine was altered because of the activities I witnessed between the various band members, road crew and groupies, all consensual! I was a young, impressionable lad and the behavior from all types of guys and girls was sometimes shocking to me. I noticed after a while though it became the new normal and was to be expected. All I was trying to communicate is that it took me a while to readjust my perspective, which I have done! I consciously knew the whole time that this was not normal and I consciously readjusted my life and perspective once I was done touring and back home. I was no saint but I also did not participate fully most of the time in the shenanigans I witnessed. I had a steady girlfriend back home at the time and my roommate on the road was our bass player who was happily and faithfully married to a great girl. The only point I was trying to make is that I've seen first hand how out of control things can get. For most of my personal experiences, I can't speak for anyone else, as a member of a rock and roll band on tour with other bands who were considered the A list or former A list rock stars of the day most of the time these beautiful girls were the instigators! I was only trying to bring some balance to this thread.

Let me repeat myself, I'm not condoning boorish behavior! Guys need to be very careful. Guys should look for a sign from a woman so that they know she is interested. If they do not receive any sign then they should not even bring up sex in a casual conversation. Also, like I said previously, what kind of guy wants to force himself on a girl who is not attracted to him anyway? These types of guys need to stop and examine themselves before they open their mouth or before they act. Every decision has its consequences. Sex is way more fun and fulfilling when both people are in love and fully attracted to each other.

I currently have a wife and a daughter who I adore and would jump in front of a bus to save if necessary. I'm not sure why you are targeting me in this thread. I work with some truly amazing men and women in my life. My manager and VP at my job are very competent, smart, hard working, very admirable women who I respect and really like as people. The engineer and my producing partner at the studio I'm currently recording at is a brilliant girl who is also an amazing guitarist.

I would never hurt anyone unless in self defense if someone is hurting my family or me.

While I don't feel I need to explain myself to you I'm hoping that by doing so it will bring some clarity to my position on this which is -

Love and respect your fellow human beings!

150

Ain't varying cultures interesting?

....thinking of Ruger's comment above:

I remember as a curious adolescent pre Hugh Hefner, looking at National Geographic and noticing a real difference in dress codes from North Africa to Central Africa.

I suspect various cultures have different ways of looking at what's acceptable behavior too.

....I'm sure they do.


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