Miscellaneous Rumbles

How do we treat bad men’s art?

51

That sounds like a very reasonable answer, thanks Parabar.

52

I’ve wrestled with this too. I idolized Keith Richards since I was was 10 years old. Warrren Zevon since I was 16. They were assholes, but they were my assholes.

53

but wasn't Warren fairly harmless other than to himself?

i'm not so sure that creativity always stems from one's higher nature. i'm not convinced that Son House was in a high place when he cut those songs about murdering women, and i'm quite certain this was not the case with GG Allin.

54

I’ve wrestled with this too. I idolized Keith Richards since I was was 10 years old. Warrren Zevon since I was 16. They were assholes, but they were my assholes.

– fieldhdj

Being a keyboard player, Warren Zevon is a favorite. I started reading his biography and had to put it down. Sad---he hurt himself far more than he deliberately hurt others. Liquor, drugs and fame---dangerous combination.

55

not to be overly contentious (or burst your bubble LOL) but every single member of my nuclear family was a stone alcoholic, and my erstwhile BFF destroyed his life with crack cocaine. still and all, for the non-susceptible there's little harm; i took cocaine maybe 10 or 12 times in the 1980s, didn't think it was any fun, and put it down. and though drunks are among my least favorite sort of humans, the vast majority of drinkers are not drunkards or addicts. in any case, i certainly hope you aren't trying to imply that getting high is equivalent to child molestation.

– macphisto

The damage is done to the users for the most part. If you can use in safety all the best, but I can smell a little male bovine fecal matter here, and a little bit of the Nile.

56

Anti-semitism and racism and other human failings may be despicable BUT...

I am quite flabbergasted by this statement. Ideologies that have organized and motivated genocidal mass murder such as the Holocaust and the Triangle Slave Trade are simply "human failings"?!

57

My practice is to acknowledge AND try to separate the art from the artist. It isn't always possible. I take it as a bonus when I find out that great artists whose work inspires me are also inspiring people. I'd offer Duane Eddy as a case in point.

58

The damage is done to the users for the most part. If you can use in safety all the best, but I can smell a little male bovine fecal matter here, and a little bit of the Nile.

– WinnieThomas

don't be an ad hominem BS artist. i've been smoking pot for fifty years and it has not harmed me in the least, nor did the other drugs i enjoyed in my teen years. i submit that your view is incorrect because in your position you only ever see the hopeless cases. literally millions of Americans smoke pot--or drink whiskey for that matter--with no ill effects whatsoever. i smell a whole lot of prejudice, and a fair bit of arrogance as well. your experience does not invalidate other's knowledge.

59

Anti-semitism and racism and other human failings may be despicable BUT...

I am quite flabbergasted by this statement. Ideologies that have organized and motivated genocidal mass murder such as the Holocaust and the Triangle Slave Trade are simply "human failings"?!

– Strummerson

yeah, seriously...wtf is that?

60

don't be an ad hominem BS artist. i've been smoking pot for fifty years and it has not harmed me in the least, nor did the other drugs i enjoyed in my teen years. i submit that your view is incorrect because in your position you only ever see the hopeless cases. literally millions of Americans smoke pot--or drink whiskey for that matter--with no ill effects whatsoever. i smell a whole lot of prejudice, and a fair bit of arrogance as well. your experience does not invalidate other's knowledge.

– macphisto

I rest my case.

61

of course, because you HAVE no case. everything i said is entirely true: millions of people DO use intoxicants without ill effects; as a "treatment" provider ( i really don't know how your clear contempt for your clients fits in with a therapeutic mission) you only see the small percentage of users who hit bottom; and you have no right whatsoever to dismiss my experience, which trumps yours because i actually have knowledge outside of your tiny bailiwick. it's the precise equivalent of saying all marriages are doomed because you happen to be a divorce lawyer who never married. get it straight: YOU ARE NOT THE CONSCIOUSNESS POLICE. now quit derailing this thread with your ill-informed prejudices and kindly piss right off.

62

Uh o :(

63

Stop it. You're grown men, and you know better.

If you have a problem with something someone says, you can vote the post down, you can take it up with them offline and/or you can notify me. You do not have free rein throw feces on random threads.

64

notable that as usual you collapse my response, but not the repeated insults which provoked an entirely correct response. double standard much?

65

I didn't collapse your response, the community did.

Personally, I agree with you, there were other comments that were antagonistic and should have been collapsed, too. But that's for the community to decide.

And either way, it doesn't mean your response was correct. It wasn't. Not at all.

Don't make me lock another one. I'm getting really sick of this.

66

When people’s character is involved, I have learned to trust my gut.

Jacko had always created an uneasy feeling with me, not sure why, but something about him was way off. I don’t enjoy or listen to his music.
When humans prey on innocence a special kind of evil is involved.
I am drawn to art that expresses pain and desperation. There is something very real about art of this nature and many times it is created by people struggling to figure things out.

Yet, for me, I drawn the line at perverting the young and innocent.

67

"I'm getting really sick of this"

not half as sick of it as i am. i should not be expected to let people shit on me in public and weasel out of it in private. lies should be refuted where all can see. i get that you value comity more than truth, but that doesn't make it fair or right.

68

Easy solution. Start your own forum.

69

One of the biggest problems is that the written word lacks nuance. It lacks tone (for the most part), facial expression and body language. These things can be intuited from the page or screen if one knows the context, or if the writer has a decent amount of skill, but often enough, it doesn't work that way. As a result, the tendency is almost always to take it at face value, and that my friends, is where trouble often starts.

We all know (for example) sarcasm when we hear it. However, sarcasm written out is simply an insult. Devoid of context, or any personality, it becomes just the words on the screen, and those words can hurt, promoting a reaction.

Once upon a time, I was an exec-at-large in a local union, and one very consistent issue seemed to be "he/she insulted me in an email. I want him/her fired!!"

More than once, I put the two parties in a room and had the insulter read their note directly to the aggrieved party.

Tone & expression changed everything. Almost half of those cases went away right there and then.

Sometimes, I think that's what happens here - just before the serious crud starts flying.

Out.

70

This is an excellent question that depends on a number of subjective variables. Personally I never liked Michael Jackson's music so the fact that he was something less than a great human being doesn't matter to me. On the other hand I may be willing to excuse some bad behavior on the part of some musicians if I love their music.

You also have to look at when their bad behavior occurred. Clapton said some horrendous things many years ago, but it doesn't seem to be reflective of the person he is now.

Context is everything I guess.

Then there are some people, several classical music conductors, who I cannot excuse their relationship with Nazi Germany, I was never convinced they really repented for their service under the Nazi's. To me that is an unpardonable sin.

71

Perhaps the art that evil people create should be seen not as art to stir the emotions but as artifacts to be studied for whatever useful information they might have.

72

This one of those that is hard to make a decision about. Surely, we knew of Jackson as an odd, eccentric, and disturbed person. Not a soul can not say "what"?, to the allegations long before the special was aired, of children, and adults doing anything together they would not do with their parents. But now, it seems, two grown men, who's parents allowed them to be in proximity of the activities have made this docu and it's basically they against the world, spiced with what we already assumed and possibly knew about MJ.

Is that reason enough to completely erase MJ from the world?? It may be for some, but for others it will only instill their love and fandom of him for quirky reasons. Will I listen to MJ.. no, I never did and never found the music attractive at all, but some will continue to listen and cultivate his recordings because they love the music,nothing more. That doesn't make them bad people.

73

The same as we treat bad women's art, you misogynist pig!

74

If you can enjoy the art, do so. If the bad act of the artist haunts you, ignore the art.

We enjoy very old art from ancient times. We don't know if those artists were good people.

If you know for certain the artist is evil, it's up to you if love the art enough to distantiate from the artists behavior alone.

Wagner was a nazi. Who doesn't like the Valkyrie when we smell napalm in the morning?

It's a difficult matter but I'm not gonna put myself in agony because someone else made a huge error.

I find the way the world now makes digital decisions, very nasty. If something smells even a tiny bit bad, people can't wait to burn and destroy it for good. If things are proven and there is an impact on you personally, I can understand that. But in some cases, maybe not the Jackson case, things are immediately blown out of proportion and the fundamentalist rightgeous ravers can't wait to annihilate like it is the safest thing to do that right away.

75

Wagner died in 1883. How could he have been a Nazi?


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