Miscellaneous Rumbles

Vegas- Holy Hannah, hope everyone’s ok

101

I wish I could claim I knew that.

I've read quite a bit about Jefferson, and that he had a dozen pedometer designs and such, and how broke he was.

Where did you find information about him copying European designs?

102

I guess in school... read a ton (nerd) and more in depth in law school. Also lived there for a few years and met many C'ville people from UVA and town with good history info.

104

Hegel's dialectic is the tool which manipulates us into a frenzied circular pattern of thought and action. Every time we fight for or defend against an ideology we are playing a necessary role in Marx and Engels' grand design to advance humanity into a dictatorship of the proletariat. The synthetic Hegelian solution to all these conflicts can't be introduced unless we all take a side that will advance the agenda. The Marxist's global agenda is moving along at breakneck speed. The only way to completely stop the privacy invasions, expanding domestic police powers, land grabs, insane wars against inanimate objects (and transient verbs), covert actions, and outright assaults on individual liberty, is to step outside the dialectic. This releases us from the limitations of controlled and guided thought.

When we understand what motivated Hegel, we can see his influence on all of our destinies. ... Hegelian conflicts steer every political arena on the planet, from the United Nations to the major American political parties, all the way down to local school boards and community councils. Dialogues and consensus-building are primary tools of the dialectic, and terror and intimidation are also acceptable formats for obtaining the goal. The ultimate Third Way agenda is world government. Once we get what's really going on, we can cut the strings and move our lives in original directions outside the confines of the dialectical madness. Focusing on Hegel's and Engel's ultimate agenda, and avoiding getting caught up in their impenetrable theories of social evolution, gives us the opportunity to think and act our way toward freedom, justice, and genuine liberty for all.

Today the dialectic is active in every political issue that encourages taking sides. We can see it in environmentalists instigating conflicts against private property owners, in democrats against republicans, in greens against libertarians, in communists against socialists, in neo-cons against traditional conservatives, in community activists against individuals, in pro-choice versus pro-life, in Christians against Muslims, in isolationists versus interventionists, in peace activists against war hawks. No matter what the issue, the invisible dialectic aims to control both the conflict and the resolution of differences, and leads everyone involved into a new cycle of conflicts.

The Hegelian dialectical formula: A (thesis) versus B (anti-thesis) equals C (synthesis).

For example: If (A) my idea of freedom conflicts with (B) your idea of freedom then (C) neither of us can be free until everyone agrees to be a slave.

105

two things though : 1)not my constitution, I'm not an American, and I don't live in the USA. A "mind your own business then" will be accepted, gotta give you that.

2)private ownership of guns stopping more crime than the other way around? [...] Whether it's crimes involving guns, gun accidents, gun suicides, mass shootings or anything in that vein, you can talk until you're blue in the face. The number and statistics don't lie.

Walter the Second Amendment is a civil right and the framers of the Constitution were considerably influenced in this very regard by and only Europeans, perhaps ironically.

You mentioned in another post that the Constitution is some 200 year old document, implying that it's out of date and has no relevance today, etc etc. That's odd coming from someone who I feel knows more than anyone else I've read about recording techniques and sounds from not nearly as long but still quite a long time ago--surely the passage of time to someone like yourself in particular doesn't always make something irrelevant by that very fact.

The philosophy that influenced the framers goes back in some significant instances not 200 but 2000 years (Aristotle and Cicero in particular). If I were to quote some of the writings of these persons here, I would like to think that you would not find the philosophies dated and, instead, be rather taken by how well these people understood and observed human nature and society.

Specifically, as espoused by these philosophers (ancient and Enlightenment) the framers were very aware of Natural Law. Natural Law is not a piece of paper with some amendments on it, but rights the philosophers/framers saw as God given and inviolate. The right to defend oneself is viewed to be in keeping with Natural Law. It just happens to be called the Second Amendment here.


You tell us the statistics don't lie but then don't actually provide any yourself. I don't like getting into statistical debates but I can if called upon, provide pretty solid evidence that demonstrates that your position is statistically incorrect. One of the big obfuscations with gun data is that they try to characterize "suicides" using firearms as "homicides" for starters, which increases the numbers by about 2/3rds.

Restriction on gun ownership in a country like France is about is strong as anywhere on earth I can think of. How'd that work out when it came to dealing with the Bataclan in Paris, November 2015? It didn't stop depraved murderers from being armed to the teeth with Kalashnikovs, but it went a long way to better ensure there was no chance any one could fight back against them and hence 130 dead.


I have never held a gun let alone fired one and likely never will. But I do know philosophy, history and specious from reasoned argument. I am all ears for a proposal that will end events like this. It is pretty much impossible to legislate evil out of someone with a depraved heart and even more laws have never been able to resolve that fact.

106

Hegel's dialectic is the tool which manipulates us into a frenzied circular pattern of thought and action. Every time we fight for or defend against an ideology we are playing a necessary role in Marx and Engels' grand design to advance humanity into a dictatorship of the proletariat. The synthetic Hegelian solution to all these conflicts can't be introduced unless we all take a side that will advance the agenda. The Marxist's global agenda is moving along at breakneck speed. The only way to completely stop the privacy invasions, expanding domestic police powers, land grabs, insane wars against inanimate objects (and transient verbs), covert actions, and outright assaults on individual liberty, is to step outside the dialectic. This releases us from the limitations of controlled and guided thought.

When we understand what motivated Hegel, we can see his influence on all of our destinies. ... Hegelian conflicts steer every political arena on the planet, from the United Nations to the major American political parties, all the way down to local school boards and community councils. Dialogues and consensus-building are primary tools of the dialectic, and terror and intimidation are also acceptable formats for obtaining the goal. The ultimate Third Way agenda is world government. Once we get what's really going on, we can cut the strings and move our lives in original directions outside the confines of the dialectical madness. Focusing on Hegel's and Engel's ultimate agenda, and avoiding getting caught up in their impenetrable theories of social evolution, gives us the opportunity to think and act our way toward freedom, justice, and genuine liberty for all.

Today the dialectic is active in every political issue that encourages taking sides. We can see it in environmentalists instigating conflicts against private property owners, in democrats against republicans, in greens against libertarians, in communists against socialists, in neo-cons against traditional conservatives, in community activists against individuals, in pro-choice versus pro-life, in Christians against Muslims, in isolationists versus interventionists, in peace activists against war hawks. No matter what the issue, the invisible dialectic aims to control both the conflict and the resolution of differences, and leads everyone involved into a new cycle of conflicts.

The Hegelian dialectical formula: A (thesis) versus B (anti-thesis) equals C (synthesis).

For example: If (A) my idea of freedom conflicts with (B) your idea of freedom then (C) neither of us can be free until everyone agrees to be a slave.

– THE NOCTURNE BRAIN™ (actually loves hippies)

Conspiracy everywhere?

107

Conspiracies used to be on the fringe, now they've become mainstream! Darn near an ideological litmus test!

108

OMG, that Jefferson dig is priceless. I am NOT impressed with that guy. Inventor... please. Go to Europe, copy everything and come back to the US and claim it's all "you".

I argued many of these claims while on a tour of Monticello and was asked to leave (I was a kid). Some adults, outside after the tour, wanted to hear what I had to say.

Jefferson: A patent troll before the term ever existed.

– gretschman36

"Standing on the shoulders of Giants"!

109

two things though : 1)not my constitution, I'm not an American, and I don't live in the USA. A "mind your own business then" will be accepted, gotta give you that.

2)private ownership of guns stopping more crime than the other way around? [...] Whether it's crimes involving guns, gun accidents, gun suicides, mass shootings or anything in that vein, you can talk until you're blue in the face. The number and statistics don't lie.

Walter the Second Amendment is a civil right and the framers of the Constitution were considerably influenced in this very regard by and only Europeans, perhaps ironically.

You mentioned in another post that the Constitution is some 200 year old document, implying that it's out of date and has no relevance today, etc etc. That's odd coming from someone who I feel knows more than anyone else I've read about recording techniques and sounds from not nearly as long but still quite a long time ago--surely the passage of time to someone like yourself in particular doesn't always make something irrelevant by that very fact.

The philosophy that influenced the framers goes back in some significant instances not 200 but 2000 years (Aristotle and Cicero in particular). If I were to quote some of the writings of these persons here, I would like to think that you would not find the philosophies dated and, instead, be rather taken by how well these people understood and observed human nature and society.

Specifically, as espoused by these philosophers (ancient and Enlightenment) the framers were very aware of Natural Law. Natural Law is not a piece of paper with some amendments on it, but rights the philosophers/framers saw as God given and inviolate. The right to defend oneself is viewed to be in keeping with Natural Law. It just happens to be called the Second Amendment here.


You tell us the statistics don't lie but then don't actually provide any yourself. I don't like getting into statistical debates but I can if called upon, provide pretty solid evidence that demonstrates that your position is statistically incorrect. One of the big obfuscations with gun data is that they try to characterize "suicides" using firearms as "homicides" for starters, which increases the numbers by about 2/3rds.

Restriction on gun ownership in a country like France is about is strong as anywhere on earth I can think of. How'd that work out when it came to dealing with the Bataclan in Paris, November 2015? It didn't stop depraved murderers from being armed to the teeth with Kalashnikovs, but it went a long way to better ensure there was no chance any one could fight back against them and hence 130 dead.


I have never held a gun let alone fired one and likely never will. But I do know philosophy, history and specious from reasoned argument. I am all ears for a proposal that will end events like this. It is pretty much impossible to legislate evil out of someone with a depraved heart and even more laws have never been able to resolve that fact.

– knavel

Knavel, you read too much into what I said about the American constitution. I'll elaborate, yes, it's something you've heard many times before and might classify as the classic liberal reply : I'm not implying the whole document is outdated. I'm saying what a lot of people are saying : the people who wrote that document couldn't even imagine the weaponry that's realistically economically (and apparently, in a lot of cases, legally) available to private citizens.

Re: statistics. I guess we must get them from wildy different sources. In the ones I've seen on the subject, the difference in gun related deaths between the USA and other developed/western/high income nations are so staggeringly big it's almost unbelievable.

Don't think for a minute I feel innocent, morally superior, or high and mighty. I was born in Belgium and have lived here all of my life - sure, gun laws here are pretty restrictive, there is relatively little gun violence, public opinion tends to be fairly anti gun, and we love to call gun loving Americans crazy cowboys. But for the zit-sized country we are, we manufacture and export an extraordinairily high number of firearms.

110

Conspiracy everywhere?

– Knoxy

This is not any form of conspiracy, not in the least. In 1847 the London Communist League (Karl Marx and Frederick Engels) used Hegel's theory of the dialectic to back up their economic theory of communism. Now, in the 21st century, Hegelian-Marxist thinking affects our entire social and political structure. The Hegelian dialectic is the framework for guiding our thoughts and actions into conflicts that lead us to a predetermined solution.

111

Knavel, you read too much into what I said about the American constitution. I'll elaborate, yes, it's something you've heard many times before and might classify as the classic liberal reply : I'm not implying the whole document is outdated. I'm saying what a lot of people are saying : the people who wrote that document couldn't even imagine the weaponry that's realistically economically (and apparently, in a lot of cases, legally) available to private citizens.

Re: statistics. I guess we must get them from wildy different sources. In the ones I've seen on the subject, the difference in gun related deaths between the USA and other developed/western/high income nations are so staggeringly big it's almost unbelievable.

Don't think for a minute I feel innocent, morally superior, or high and mighty. I was born in Belgium and have lived here all of my life - sure, gun laws here are pretty restrictive, there is relatively little gun violence, public opinion tends to be fairly anti gun, and we love to call gun loving Americans crazy cowboys. But for the zit-sized country we are, we manufacture and export an extraordinairily high number of firearms.

– WB

We're developing a new Social Experiment here in the US. We're working toward a Country where every State has to comply with the least restrictive firearms State laws. If one State allows open carry with no restrictions to Churches and schools and daycares and taverns, then ALL States must follow the same laws. If one State allows "Stand your Ground" laws where it's legal to shoot someone simply because you feel "Threatened", and it's up to the Prosecutor to prove you didn't feel threatened, then feel free to Fire Away. Even dangerous convicted felons and others with mental instabilities are covered, as, is it fair to not allow even a Felon or nut job the right to defend himself?

There are laws going on the books in many States to stop States and Municipalities from creating new firearms laws even if approved by the majority of voters. Stack the deck.

There's something strange about these Democrats.

112

Semi-Auto Rifle + Bump Stock = Machine Gun. Machine Gun = Illegal. Ban Bump Stocks.

113

This is not any form of conspiracy, not in the least. In 1847 the London Communist League (Karl Marx and Frederick Engels) used Hegel's theory of the dialectic to back up their economic theory of communism. Now, in the 21st century, Hegelian-Marxist thinking affects our entire social and political structure. The Hegelian dialectic is the framework for guiding our thoughts and actions into conflicts that lead us to a predetermined solution.

– THE NOCTURNE BRAIN™ (actually loves hippies)

Interesting stuff going on fer sure.

There certainly is a trend toward Divide and Conquer. Folks pushing Scotland to leave, pushing Brexit, attempting new splits in France, Germany, Spain, and more. ....like Texas and California secession! Investigations tell us we are targeted big time, internally and externally!

Unlike the 1800s, we have near instant communication today so it's easier for folks to see the bigger picture if they really wanna. And the bigger picture at the moment seems to be a battle between shareholder capitalism and stakeholder capitalism among the major players. (oversimplification.) With a bit of new age adventurous colonialism and dirty tricksing from our Russian friends!

Me, I like the Stakeholder version best.

114

Knavel, you read too much into what I said about the American constitution. I'll elaborate, yes, it's something you've heard many times before and might classify as the classic liberal reply : I'm not implying the whole document is outdated. I'm saying what a lot of people are saying : the people who wrote that document couldn't even imagine the weaponry that's realistically economically (and apparently, in a lot of cases, legally) available to private citizens.

Re: statistics. I guess we must get them from wildy different sources. In the ones I've seen on the subject, the difference in gun related deaths between the USA and other developed/western/high income nations are so staggeringly big it's almost unbelievable.

Don't think for a minute I feel innocent, morally superior, or high and mighty. I was born in Belgium and have lived here all of my life - sure, gun laws here are pretty restrictive, there is relatively little gun violence, public opinion tends to be fairly anti gun, and we love to call gun loving Americans crazy cowboys. But for the zit-sized country we are, we manufacture and export an extraordinairily high number of firearms.

– WB

How about this from United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC). The murder rate in the US is 4.88, and Belgium is 1.95 per 100,000. The rate for Europe is 3.0. This using all methods, not just guns.

We are all not ducking flying lead here, but it's hard to tell by the press. Our large cities have some problems. No doubt you've heard about Chicago, 27.9 murder rate per 100,000. Why St Louis @59.3 and Baltimore @51.2 don't get equal negative press would be a legitimate question.

The total activity in a couple dozen of our largest cities inflates the numbers, makes the rest of us look bad.

The cities have problems, some of the same problems that were a contributor to the turmoil of the '60's exist today.

Our suicide deaths are 22.2/100K, I think a little over half by gun. Ya know, what does that tell us, not much I think. According to the World Health Org(WHO) Belgium's rate is 36.7/ 100K and Japan has a rate of 49.5/100K, how can that be....is the important issue how they did it, or is it why they did it.

The stressors and methods might vary by society and culture but the result is the same....I find it hard to blame the method.

115

Law abiding citizens do not shoot people...stand your ground is a red herring in this discussion, as it does not pertain strictly to fire arms .... and any true gun advocate knows that bump stocks don't work...it's a parlor trick.

116

Law abiding citizens do not shoot people...stand your ground is a red herring in this discussion, as it does not pertain strictly to fire arms .... and any true gun advocate knows that bump stocks don't work...it's a parlor trick.

– Rey Allen (Jeff O)

Gotta say I mostly agree with you!

It's true, law abiding citizens do not intentionally shoot people, except sometimes a family member shows up in the wrong place at the wrong time like what happened here a couple weeks ago, or the time my older Brother accidentally shot his friend back in the 1930s. Or the gal who's toddler got into her purse in a Walmart in Idaho, or the other toddler in the daycare here a few weeks back. Or the gal here in Florida who left her toddler in the back seat of her truck with her handgun under the seat where the kid could reach it. It happens.

Stand your ground can help folks truly in danger, but sometimes an old guy 'bout my age in a movie theater here in Florida can be scared when popcorn is thrown at him and stands his ground. Or the guy over in Melbourne Fl. who hit a guy by accident in a fender bender and thought the guy he hit looked really menacing and blew him away. Or the guy near Tampa in the Pizza place.....yeah he was scared at the other customer in line at the store. I'm not sure but I think a guy with a Machete stood his ground too, so right, it ain't always guns. Florida was the first with stand yer ground about 11 years ago and now about half the States have it. This summer our Gov. signed a new bill making it the responsibility of the prosecution to prove that the shooter wasn't really scared.

Bump stocks sure aren't very accurate fer sure! Looking at the videos it seems it would be difficult to group within a reasonable sized parking lot at 300 yards!

117

Here are the FBI stats on murder and weapons used. Apparently more are killed by hands than rifles, at least in the years shown. Gotta look at it with reason and not emotion.Link

118

This is not any form of conspiracy, not in the least. In 1847 the London Communist League (Karl Marx and Frederick Engels) used Hegel's theory of the dialectic to back up their economic theory of communism. Now, in the 21st century, Hegelian-Marxist thinking affects our entire social and political structure. The Hegelian dialectic is the framework for guiding our thoughts and actions into conflicts that lead us to a predetermined solution.

– THE NOCTURNE BRAIN™ (actually loves hippies)

Tavo, you misunderstand Hegel and Marx and Engels. Theirs are not 'agendas' or 'tools' but epistemological and historical models. Hegel came up with an evolutionary model of human progress in which thesis clashes with antithesis, leading to synthesis, which is merely a new state of affairs which will clash with its antithesis and so forth. It wasn't a political agenda, just an attempt at understanding how the world and humanity changes over time. Marx and Engels were 'Young Hegelians' in their youth but became unconvinced by Hegel's more 'esoteric' leanings, especially the notion of a human 'Spirit' ('Geist') that connects and animates all of humanity and gradually evolves towards ever greater perfection. Marx (Engels less so) looked to the materialism of Feuerbach and developed the 'materialist dialectic' which later in later generations morphed into 'historical materialism'. Here, everything is determined by the material basis of human life and the famous 'means of production' (not Hegel's 'Spirit'). Everything (culture, society, political and interpersonal relationships) is determined by the way things are produced and Marx postulated several historical stages in which different types of societies - defined by the way they produced - gave way to the next type of society as and when the means of production changed: slave society replaced by feudal society, feudal society replaced by bourgeois/ capitalist society, capitalist society was to be replaced by socialism which would eventually develop into communism.

So, both Hegel's and Marx's dialectics are ways of conceptualising and understanding historical development and social evolution but they aren't 'programs' or 'agendas'.

Also, what does this have to do Las Vegas?

119

Personally, I find this all so confusing. For 8 years people on this site and across the inter-verse told me that Obama was taking away their guns. How did guns get into that hotel when his liberal gestapo jihadi marxist cult had supposedly taken them away and locked gun owners away in reeducation camps?

120

Here are the FBI stats on murder and weapons used. Apparently more are killed by hands than rifles, at least in the years shown. Gotta look at it with reason and not emotion.Link

– Opie

This is precisely the kind of argument that infuriates me, because it is so purely (if accidentally) political in nature. As a character in MASH asked when confronted by an Army general who was confident that Allied casualties in a proposed action would be "insignificant":

"How many lives in an 'insignificant'?"

It's not that gun violence actually ends fewer lives than hands, it's that it ends innocent lives at all. By your own submission, more than 8100 lives were lost in the US due to murder by firearm. And by the way, your chart does not mention "accidental" shootings, which range from outright hunting accidents to "I didn't know it was loaded" in-home deaths.

8124 lives lost to murder by firearm. Assuming that each victim leaves 2 survivors, that is nearly 25,000 lives forever affected by gun violence, and very likely more. There are a lot of towns in the US where the population is under 25,000. Those stats take one of them off the map entirely every year.

Note that I am not talking just rifles. It's far too blithe to point to a very small piece of the puzzle in order to prove that something else is "worse". To me, dead is dead. To those who must deal with it, even just as witnesses, whether caused by handgun, rifle, shotgun or one of those insane conversions we saw last weekend, they still have to deal with it. Personally, I am concerned with the problem of death by easily-accessible gun- any gun

Have we arrived at an answer to Hawkeye's question? Is the answer really 8,000? Is this a number acceptable to the majority?

Somehow, I doubt it.

121

Personally, I find this all so confusing. For 8 years people on this site and across the inter-verse told me that Obama was taking away their guns. How did guns get into that hotel when his liberal gestapo jihadi marxist cult had supposedly taken them away and locked gun owners away in reeducation camps?

– Strummerson

That says a lot for the NRA lobby.

122

You can buy 'em books, ya can send 'em to school, but ya can't fix stupid.

123

Personally, I find this all so confusing. For 8 years people on this site and across the inter-verse told me that Obama was taking away their guns. How did guns get into that hotel when his liberal gestapo jihadi marxist cult had supposedly taken them away and locked gun owners away in reeducation camps?

– Strummerson

Obomba didn't take the guns away, he just made the ammo expensive.

124

Personally, I find this all so confusing. For 8 years people on this site and across the inter-verse told me that Obama was taking away their guns. How did guns get into that hotel when his liberal gestapo jihadi marxist cult had supposedly taken them away and locked gun owners away in reeducation camps?

– Strummerson

Obomba didn't take the guns away, he just made the ammo expensive.

125

Obomba didn't take the guns away, he just made the ammo expensive.

– munman

I recall that urban myth. ATF caused brass prices to rise, 500% tax increases, stuff like that. Didn't happen in the real world.

Those "Alternative Facts" were debunked years ago. Prices did go up when the demand was higher, like after mass shootings and panic talk from the NRA on yet another false gun confiscation threat, then the dealers raised the prices and ripped buyers off. Supply and demand.

EDIT: (after the page change) For those of us who were looking forward to legalizing Pot in the US, Obomba was fer it, the new administration is again' it. Bummer, man.

Better to smoke, than "shoot" up!


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