Miscellaneous Rumbles

Hitting the dreaded “down” button!

26

Emotions often overpower critical thinking and logic. Everyone has a different threshold. When it happens, the logical choice to just not respond to a perceived attack or slight is thrown aside and the responses are constant and emotional.

I can't look weak! I can't lose a fight! I must have the last word! I must insult my adversary!

It's never a good look, at least according to Spock.

27

A whole new meaning to "off the site".

LMAO

– J(ust an old Cowboy)D

Not at all. Declined the option. I guess that eluded you.

You never miss an opportunity to be a jerk, do you... Just stick your nose in and entertain yourself to anyone else's detriment. You are a prime reason I don't have any faith in the moderation of this community or in this community's will to moderate itself so that we treat one another decently and with basic respect. Prove my point over and over and over again.

And we see, once again, that moderation of abuse is opportunistic and prejudicial. If we are going to talk about the 'down button' we should talk about how it is a tool of abuse in the hands of particular members and part of what enables them is the silencing of anyone who deigns to stand up to them.

28

"happy to have that conversation with you. Off the site. Not here."

Nothing eluded me, you just didn't want to listen to the man behind the GDP curtain.

Your choice, your attitude.

– J(ust an old Cowboy)D

I did listen. I differed and answered him directly and explained why I was declining his offer. Then you stuck your nose in to score points because you are a jerk and enjoy attention. Your choice. Your attitude. And you just keep going. For whatever reason. IGATEYIN.

And around and around we go. Some are allowed to abuse, because others are not permitted to answer.

Can anyone remember a single instance where I exploited a conversation to express personal animus towards another member? But here we see that one who does so repeatedly is shielded and answering him will not be tolerated. And the hilarity of being lectured by this member, even by implication, regarding civility and attitude, or for that matter "tone", is difficult to ignore.

Coddling abusive personalities is toxic to any community.

29

And if anyone would like to address a personal issue with me, "I am happy to communicate off site." But if you want to pursue it on site, I will answer as I see fit. And if anyone wants to lobby Bax for my removal, that's your prerogative. But abuse is abuse. And tolerating it approves and encourages it.

30

There also are two buttons at the very foot of any topic, one up, one down, as to the entire topic. I find them useful occasionally, usually for a topic that becomes a forum for one person who wants to take over a conversation. Say, making several posts in a row just to grind in a point.

31

Strum and JD. I hope (and I believe) I enjoy warm and civil relationships with you both. We've either met or had numerous off-site interactions. I find a great deal in common with both of you, and believe you both fellers of goodwill, benign intent, and tolerance. You've both brought valuable input to the GDP party. I "like" both of you. Neither are trolls, one-note axe-grinders, pompous poseurs, or otherwise negative forces in the community.

But when you run up against each other, you each bring out something prickly in the other. I don't know why.

JD, it seems like you single out Strum's comments for unprovoked dismissive and flip commentary in a way I don't recall having seen you go after anyone else. There must be some history, or some triggering mechanism for this. But I don't know what it is. If I've seen it, I've forgotten.

Strum, I don't quite see JD's admittedly snide asides to you as "abusive." I don't know who votes down everything you post. (Or, apparently, some of it. Not everything.) From my perspective, you seem to defensively over-react to JD - and apparently hold the entire community to account for not defending you.

But I don't think the whole community has any idea what the bad blood is between you two guys. To speak for myself, I've concluded it's something between you two - into which the rest of us have, in the past, been dragged, and which I suspect most of us are now anxious to avoid.

It's like we're a ragged but still marginally cohesive army trudging tiredly but tirelessly down an endless road, through sun and shade, mud and rain, potholes and pavement, formal discipline long abandoned but our mutual regard and proven trust for each other holding us largely together as we head for some distant destination. We shift positions through the rows and ranks, having conversations with each other, telling jokes, endlessly (sometimes repetitiously) discussing experiences and memories and ambitions, wisecracking, telling our tales -sometimes snapping, but generally getting along.

And every once in awhile, two of our number - for no good reason the rest of us can see - suddenly fall out and start grappling and punching, rolling around in the mud, trying to score some kind of point either against each other or with the group. One guy generally pulls sneaky low blows and looks around to see if anyone noticed, assuming everyone quietly approves - and the other rains down a flurry of sophisticated fisticuffs and righteously proclaims his injuries, demanding the group do something about it.

But the group is tired. For the most part, the rest of us are really trying to ignore the seemingly unprovoked poopstorm, stepping aside to give wide berth to the erstwhile comrade combatants. We do our best to avoid the slinging mud and wait for the ruckus to spend itself so we can go back to pretty much getting along with each other.

I don't think we want to take sides. I don't think we either condone or secretly support one or the other's "behavior" (like we wuz chilluns) toward the other. I think we think it shouldn't be our business. I think we think a couple of mature, responsible, valued members of our ragged troupe should be able to work this out betwixt themselves.

I think I should now duck.

32

But when you run up against each other, you each bring out something prickly in the other. I don't know why.

JD, it seems like you single out Strum's comments for unprovoked dismissive and flip commentary in a way I don't recall having seen you go after anyone else. There must be some history, or some triggering mechanism for this. But I don't know what it is. If I've seen it, I've forgotten.

Strum, I don't quite see JD's admittedly snide asides to you as "abusive." I don't know who votes down everything you post. (Or, apparently, some of it. Not everything.) From my perspective, you seem to defensively over-react to JD - and apparently hold the entire community to account for not defending you.

Proteus, I find this confusing. You first seem to say that you see this as a reciprocal issue, but then you recognize that JD targets me without provocation. There IS history here and it is a history of unprovoked aggression and provocation. JD is a member of a small group of people that have targeted me. And that's why I see his "flip" and "snide" asides as "abusive". There is context. And I know of others who have left this community permanently because of these folks and their childish shenanigans. Not confronting them has not been good for this community, and I do think, given that we all are familiar with Bax's approach, that there are instances where the community fails to moderate itself. I get that people prefer not to get involved. The problem is that it continues. One of the reasons I think it merits address is that I don't think other members should have to deal with this kind of sandbox crap, and that's really what it is. I don't care who thinks what of anyone in particular. But your experience of JD and his...em...colleagues is very different from mine. I never seek them out at this point. I never respond to them, even on unrelated musical topics. I just don't respect them enough to engage with them at all. But when they engage me "unprovoked" I speak out about the problem. I don't believe it serves to simply put the onus on people who have been targeted by them to just "rise above". Toleration of toxicity is not, in my view, ethical or practical.

33

It's the internet. You either rise above or go under. If you fight every pointless battle, you'll spend your whole time fighting. Ten of the thirty-two posts before this one belong to you.

Pick up a guitar instead and live longer.

34

It's the internet. You either rise above or go under. If you fight every pointless battle, you'll spend your whole time fighting. Ten of the thirty-two posts before this one belong to you.

Pick up a guitar instead and live longer.

– beatbyrd

Another bully enabler.

You think I never rise above it? You think I fight every pointless battle? Wrong. But I guess saying so makes you feel authoritative and wise. Easy to do when you don't pay attention to the pertinent facts.

I didn't inaugurate this thread. But as long as there is a thread about the down button, I pointed out that it is abused.

Bax offered to address it "off the site". He could have extended that offer "off the site", but chose not to. I explained why I wasn't "happy" to do so.

Then, one of the stuck himself into the middle of it to take a shot. No need to do so. As Proteus noted, it was (and generally is) unprovoked. You think I enjoy contact with him? I never initiate any contact with him or his compadres. But, yes, I responded. Often I don't. Almost always, I don't. Others have left because of these members. You ok with that? Better to "ignore" the bullies and let them chase others off? Does that make sense to you?

Had he never commented, had Bax not made his offer ON THE SITE, there would have been two comments from me. One stating the issue, the other acknowledging Deke.

And several of those comments were mostly pasted from comments that had been collapsed by other enablers.

Beatbyrd, had you faced a history of abuse in this community like I have, like other members who have and have dropped out as a result, and addressed it in a thread that was germane, I would support you, not chide you. You and anyone else.

I guess that's where we differ. Bullies are poison. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away like you think it does. At the very least, I would have made a good faith effort to understand you. There is something wrong with a "community" that celebrates itself and then addresses people who raise a problem with dismissal and condescension. If you aren't part of the solution in matters like these, in my view, you are very much part of the problem.

Oh, and thanks to those who have at least reached out in the last two hours personally with messages of support and shared similar experiences or solicited more info, instead o offering unsolicited advice. That counts for something.

35

The original subject of the thread was accidental post votes up/down. The very next post, yes...the second post is this,

Strummerson Well, that would excuse the childish sack of human (or animal) feces who votes down almost any comment of mine, no matter what, including multiple instances including pictures of my kids.

He describes anyone that would down vote his posts as a 'sack of human(or animal) feces and he's the only one guilty of name calling in this thread, yet he insists it is he that is abused and clamours for decency and respect.

How did Strummerson turn this thread turn into all about Strummerson?

36

The original subject of the thread was accidental post votes up/down. The very next post, yes...the second post is this,

Strummerson Well, that would excuse the childish sack of human (or animal) feces who votes down almost any comment of mine, no matter what, including multiple instances including pictures of my kids.

He describes anyone that would down vote his posts as a 'sack of human(or animal) feces and he's the only one guilty of name calling in this thread, yet he insists it is he that is abused and clamours for decency and respect.

How did Strummerson turn this thread turn into all about Strummerson?

– Knoxy

Another of the usual suspects.

Someone (perhaps like you?) who votes down every comment by a member is indeed a trollish sack of feces and deserves to be called out as such.

You have zero credibility weighing on on decency and respect given how you treat others. And it isn't "all about Strummerson". It's about you and your fellow abusers. I'm not the only one you have mistreated. You and I both know that. Suddenly you are opposed to name calling? What a crock. We also know that I have never targeted you. So do yourself a favor and stop demonstrating your callow hypocrisy.

And yes, I will call out bullies. Not just when they abuse me, but when they abuse others. And we all should. Or we encourage them.

37

Another of the usual suspects.

Someone (perhaps like you?) who votes down every comment by a member is indeed a trollish sack of feces and deserves to be called out as such.

You have zero credibility weighing on on decency and respect given how you treat others. And it isn't "all about Strummerson". It's about you and your fellow abusers. I'm not the only one you have mistreated. You and I both know that. Suddenly you are opposed to name calling? What a crock. We also know that I have never targeted you. So do yourself a favor and stop demonstrating your callow hypocrisy.

And yes, I will call out bullies. Not just when they abuse me, but when they abuse others. And we all should. Or we encourage them.

– Strummerson

More drama, definitely another worthless post.

38

Keep exposing yourself. Bring your friends. Let the whole community see you are.

How about all you lovely gents stay the hell away from me and all the others you harass. It's that easy. Have I EVER addressed you without you flinging your poo at me or someone else? Never once. And I never will. You don't like the "drama", knock off the mean spirited and juvenile junior high school lunchroom bullshit. Seriously. Just grow up. You'll never hear a peep from me again. You or the rest of you. Try it.

39

What smurfing part of

I’m happy to have that conversation with you. Off the site. Not here.

Did you have such a hard time understanding?

What in hell made you think you could turn this thread into your own little poor-poor-pitiful-me party?

Again, I will extend the offer... if you would like to discuss this further with me, I'm happy to. Off the site. That can be the philosophy of it, the nuts and bolts of it (to a point), or the ramifications. But I'm not going to do it here.

And neither are you.

Consider that a warning.

40

I understood perfectly. And explained why I was declining. You might have reached out to me off site as well. You might have sent me this comment "off the site".

If you would like to rectify past experiences "off the site" then contact me "off the site".

Warning received and accepted. If people want to keep responding, I will respond to their comments. If not, then not. Look at the comments. I dropped this hours ago and only responded to a guitar related post. And that comment was voted down as well. But, I guess that the guy who gets punched in the face unprovoked is the moral equivalent of the guy who punches him in the face unprovoked. Very fine people on both sides. Both sides.

Proceed as you like.

41

Have it your way.

42

Tim, I've responded to your email to me, but it keeps bouncing back.

Is your inbox full? Let me know and I'll sent it again. Thanks

44

Not seeing anything. You should have one from my gmail account though.

45

Well my initial post was to see if anyone else was hitting the darn button by accident. It appears I’m not the only one who smacks it with their clumsy thumbs.

It is also apparent that this button is a rather large source of controversy here.

Seems to me it might be worth getting rid of such a button.

46

I don't know about others but it is drama like this that has kept me from participating in this forum.

47

Not seeing anything. You should have one from my gmail account though.

– Baxter

Damn. My email provider changed their system the other day. I'm receiving some emails and got both of yours, but it looks my "sent" messages are getting stuck in my "outbox" box and they are not going out.

I'll see what's going on this afternoon and get that over to you. Thanks

48

I don't know about others but it is drama like this that has kept me from participating in this forum.

– GreTschocaster

Fair point. But do know the drama is not OK with me, and is being dealt with.

49

It is also apparent that this button is a rather large source of controversy here... Seems to me it might be worth getting rid of such a button.

Well, I don't think it's a source of controversy, I think some people want to blame it for their own controversial comments. Which would further reinforce to me that it's working as intended.

I think Ric12 explained the purpose and how it works pretty well, as did I. And I haven't heard any compelling argument against it other than something along the lines of "I don't like it because I don't think anyone should ever be able to say anything I say is out of line"

But, in the interest of trying to make this constructive, what do you think effective self-policing controls for the community would be? I'm open to new suggestions (although I'll tell you right now, it'll be awhile before they'd be implemented, even if I think they're a honking great idea. I have a more-than-full plate right now).

50

I have only a peripheral awareness of the voting buttons. I kinda knew they were there, but not really on a conscious I-must-vote-everything-I-see-up/down. Other than the little test I did when this started yesterday I think I used the Up button once or twice in the past.

That said, if some people find they are hitting the Down button by accident while thumb-scrolling on a cellphone maybe moving it to a safer place might work. Adding it to the Reply/Quote/Edit dropdown could be a safer option. At least that way it's tough to hit by accident.


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