Do you know if this was shipped from an actual FedEx office? There are numerous subcontractor businesses (MailBoxes R Us types) that use FedEx and UPS, and have the items picked up by them at the end of the day. There is a difference in liabilty involved, I know from personal experience. The idea that a FedEx office would take the item for shipping without being packed in a box is rather unusual. I hope you have a positive result.
FedEx Killed My King (Doublebass)
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Jul 28, 2007 8:25 a.m. Deed Eddy:
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Jul 28, 2007 8:58 a.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Matt, Nice analogy, if it made any sense to what I was talking about. The delivery guy's job is to get your package from point A to point B, not to selectively say "this package is different than the rest". They are all packages to them and you pay the same rate if it's a bass or a lawnmower! If Fed Ex had a "Special Handling" rate, you could have payed that. Otherwise, it's another box and you get the same level of customer service as the other guy that paid 400.00 to have his big box shipped. Why is your box any different than the other paying customers? Why are you entitled to special treatment? Sure, common sense says you don't toss a musical instrument across a truck but you are speculating as to how the damage happened. At most of these places, almost everything is automated anyway and humans hardly touch it except at the beginning and end of the line. The guy in the truck's job is to get it to your door in reasonable condition. It's the guy who ships its job to make sure it is packed for the trip. The Fed Ex guy is doing his job and giving everyone the same level of customer service, at least ideally. Your box is no different than anyone else's. I didn't say he didn't give a shit about his job, he just doesn't give a shit if it's your collection of Spiderman comics or a big bass. He isn't supposed to know that. He knocks on your door and hands you a box. That's how it works. His job description doesn't include "white gloving" certain packages as you didn't pay for that service. But I think you know that's what I meant and you're just being emotional about it.
Rather than try to drag my reputation through the crapper, you should look at this objectively. Someone is ultimately responsible for the damage. Fed Ex might have used it as a sled but that doesn't matter when the item wasn't packed right in the 1st place. It makes the guy who shipped it responsible. Rather than going after an easy target, think about how well that bass was packed.
You said in your 1st post that the string tension caused the pickup to hit the top. That tells me that there was enough room in the case for the neck to move. Even if shipping a bass in only a hardshell case was acceptable the fact that the neck could move says that even the case wasn't packed properly. Most neck breaks are caused from the instrument flopping around in the case and the string tension causing a whiplash effect.
I don't appreciate anyone implying that my business doesn't provide good customer service. A quick look at my Ebay rating shows 922 feedback, 100% positive. I think nearly 1000 feedbacks in the past 18 months is a good accomplishment. 100% positive feedback is almost impossible to keep at that level of business considering the number of cranks out there. I think that's a great statement on the level and quality of service that I provide. I have a ton of local customers and folks I do mail order with that would agree. I can say that you can rest assured that a package from me will get to you in one piece. It will be overpacked and should withstand 99% of the stupidity that a carrier can dish out. I'm proud of what I do and I'm happy that I've made a lot of other people happy with cool guitars. I've been very good to my customers and maintained a level of service and integrity that hopefully is refreshing.
Again, it sucks that the bass got jacked up. Unfortunately I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I don't think this is all Fed Ex's fault and a good bit of the responsibility rests with the guy who sold you the bass. I'm not attacking you. I'm saying HIS packing job sucked, not you or your bass or your dog or your mom. I see very, very piss poor packing jobs every day. Matter of fact, I got a 4000.00 Strat in a box last week that was packed with one piece of bubble wrap at the top and one at the bottom. Nothing around it and nothing in the case. When it arrived, a knob was off and the tone pot shaft was broken. I didn't blame UPS, even if they played hockey with it. I blamed the guy who packed it that way. It came from PA to MD, a one day trip. Imagine if it went to longer to CA or overseas! This was from someone who should know better too, a big dealer of high end stuff. My point is, it's not fair in my opinion to blame Fed Ex. I also don't think it's wise to imply to folks that may be shipping instruments in the future that this was an acceptable packing job. Again, not trying to call you names or throw poop on you, just stating the facts.
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Jul 28, 2007 10:39 a.m. Proteus:
Deed sez: The idea that a FedEx office would take the item for shipping without being packed in a box is rather unusual.
Maybe this differs from one Fed Ex depot to another.
Case in point: I had to ship a '55 Cadillac grille from Indiana to Florida. This item may look big and burly, but in reality it is an irregularly shaped, very light construction consisting of an outer perimeter frame of mild pressed steel and hundreds of small thin-gauge U-shaped pieces of stainless. It doesn't take much to damage it.
My first pack job featured two boxes about 2-1/2' square by 3' tall, one overturned on the other and taped together; the whole affair filled with packing peanuts and the grille nestled in the center of it with at least 6" of protection all around.
The size made it prohibitively expensive to ship. The lady at the counter at Fed Ex (a most annoying and officious stickler for rules, regulations, and details, unlikely ever to violate company policy) suggested we discard the boxes, wrap the grille around the sides and ends with packing foam and bubble wrap, wrap it ALL in clear plastic and tape it so it didn't flap in the breeze, then stick a label on it. She then helped me do just that.
She said they frequently handle items which cannot easily be boxed or crated, which take special care, which must be hand-processed and not run through the conveyers and other automation, and that it's no big deal for them to do so. (She had a Fed Ex-specific term for this, which I don't recall.)
She promised nothing would happen to the grille, and nothing did.
SINCE the bass was not in a box, then the monkeys at Fed EX COULD tell what was in it. They had to know it was not a box either of bricks or feathers. Common sense would suggest handling it with extra care – both qualities that were missing in Fed Ex's handling of this one.
But sometimes, even in the best-run organizations, poop happens, and it gets all over perfectly nice people.
Which is presumable why there's insurance.
I can't know for sure, but my guess is that "insurance" is a "profit center" for Fed Ex. If they're competent at their core business at all, insured shipments which incur a damage claim must represent a tiny proportion of their total capacity. AND (if we're to believe the anecdotal evidence of those unlucky bastids whose shipments ARE damaged) the company fights tooth and nail against paying ANY claim.
(As we know that health insurers have departments whose job it is to deny claims.)
My point is that Fed Ex has a pile of profit in their insurance fund, no doubt invested and earning interest, which ought to be used without question to make things right for the customer in situations like this.
If the bass was OBviously ill-packed, inside and out, then no. But in this situation, it appears the guy shipping the bass invested reasonable effort in padding and stuffing the KEVLAR-and-plywood case to protect the instrument, then wrapped the exterior for scuff protection.
That may not quite live up to Fed Ex's fine-print whine (or it may, I don't know what arcane rules apply in this situation) – but Fed Ex has a shipper and a receiver (and now hundreds of readers) who believe the pack job was reasonable, and that the company dropped the (bass)ball on this one.
If insurance isn't meant to cover this one, why do they offer it at all?
What really rankles in this one, and leaves a sour taste, is the whiff of greed and the teflon attempt to deflect responsibility on Fed Ex's part.
Sez Shel: The delivery guy's job is to get your package from point A to point B, not to selectively say "this package is different than the rest". They are all packages to them and you pay the same rate if it's a bass or a lawnmower! If Fed Ex had a "Special Handling" rate, you could have payed that.
I can't accept that this describes the limits of Fed Ex's responsibility. We've all stood in line at our favorite Fed Ex depot while the agent at the desk picked over every detail of someone's shipment – size, weight, anything fragile, how quick, insurance and how much, does the package live up to all Fed Ex standards. Then they put a label and bar-code on it that is supposed to track it every inch of the way.
If they pay this much attention at the front end – providing this level of detailed personal attention to each package – then we have a reasonable expectation that the same level of care obtains throughout the process. That's certainly what they want us to believe.
Any reasonable person would believe that when a company accepts work – particularly when that work is insured – the company will have done the due diligence to assure the customer that they can DO the job.
I don't take a job for work I have any question about my ability to accomplish, unless there's a clear understanding that I'm working on a maybe. And if there are any such uncertainties, I certainly don't guaranTEE such work.
If there was any question about the sufficiency of the packing, the time for Fed Ex to have questioned it was when the bass was at the counter, not after it's damaged. I appreciate that they can't vet the pack job inside every anonymous cardboard box they handle. But the very fact that this item was NOT in an anonymous cardboard box should have been the agent's first clue to challenge the shipment if they had reason to believe they would find it uninsurable AFter the fact...
Otherwise, it's another box and you get the same level of customer service as the other guy that paid 400.00 to have his big box shipped. Why is your box any different than the other paying customers? Why are you entitled to special treatment?
Only, in Matt's situation, it self-evidently was NOT another box. It was a big, bulky musical instrument in a form-fitted kevlar-and-plywood case. What Matt wants to know is why his package WAS different than those of other paying customers, whose packages arrived safe and sound. He wonders why he got such special treatment that his item is broken.
But yeah, we're all guessing about many aspects of this deal. Have you said, Matt, if the bass was insured? That looms large in my speculations. And do we know what King would say about shipping in the case alone?
I agree with Shel that there are lots of poor pack jobs out there, and the carriers get most of them safely where they're going. But I'm far from being ready to concur that THIS was a poor pack job, simply on the prima facie evidence that it was broken.
"It was broken during Fed Ex shipping, therefore it was an inadequate pack" is the kind of circular weasel logic we expect in Catch 22 and all too typically from giant bureaucracies everywhere. But we shouldn't accept it so easily.
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- Rated: 19 ↑
Jul 28, 2007 10:55 a.m. Gretschington:
I wonder how King Bass ships them...
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- Rated: 83 ↑
Jul 28, 2007 11:29 a.m. Deed Eddy:
Deed sez: The idea that a FedEx office would take the item for shipping without being packed in a box is rather unusual...
And, Deed sez that because I have seen poor shlemiels on the floor at our local FedEx doing all they can think of to get whatever it is they are trying to get out of town into some kind of box, crate, container, or recognizable holder of sorts in order for the uniformed official receiver of stuff to accept the "transfer". I hate having to send anything, anymore. It's a sickening feeling watching that item disappear into the bowels of mysteryshippingland. And yet, I hear wondrous tales of guys sending guitars across the universe via the US Postal system with nary a problem. Proteus is correct regarding the great insurance scam. Go for it, fight for it. This shouldn't have happenned.
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Jul 28, 2007 11:34 a.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Proteus said: Any reasonable person would believe that when a company accepts work – particularly when that work is insured – the company will have done the due diligence to assure the customer that they can DO the job.
Any reasonable person would also say that a package must be properly packed to make it from one destination to the next. Fed Ex can DO the job. They did it with a bazillion other packages the day Matt's bass was delivered! It's not their responsibility to make sure you know how to pack the thing! The insurance covers against Fed Ex screwing up, not YOU screwing up.
What does Kevlar have to do with anything? It's great for bulletproof vests but it I doubt it made a huge difference here. The case could have been made out of titanium and it wouldn't have made a difference as it sounds like the neck of the bass could move in the case.
Here's a great document: http://images.fedex.com/us/services/pdf/How_To_Pack.pdf "Use double wall boxes for heavier items." "Put 3" of cushioning...on all sides of container." "Use fillers like crumpled newspaper...to fill void spaces and prevent movement of goods inside box during shipment."
There's even a whole section on how to pack car parts! Sorry that the lady at your Fed Ex was dumb Proteus. It even tells you to box and pad things like grilles in these instructions. They look pretty explicit to me.
Again I'll ask: Would you ship a guitar in a hardshell case with nothing but saran wrap covering it?
Gretschington: I'm not 100% sure how King ships them but I would imagine they come via a freight truck on a pallet and almost surely in a box. Anyone gotten an upright shipped to them? How was it shipped?
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Jul 28, 2007 11:36 a.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Proteus said: "It was broken during Fed Ex shipping, therefore it was an inadequate pack" is the kind of circular weasel logic we expect in Catch 22 and all too typically from giant bureaucracies everywhere. But we shouldn't accept it so easily.
Or howzabout "It was broken during Fed Ex shipping, therefore Fed Ex didn't handle it right." Same circular logic especially considering a ton of evidence that this wasn't a proper packing job.
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Jul 28, 2007 11:41 a.m. Deed Eddy:
From the King website, re: The SlapKing
The Slap King is painted here in the US and like all King Doublebasses, it is professionally setup at our shop before it leaves, so your bass comes to you playable right out of the box.
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Jul 28, 2007 12:34 p.m. roadjunkie:
Proteus said: I agree with Shel that there are lots of poor pack jobs out there, and the carriers get most of them safely where they're going.
You guys really need to see some of the packages I get from day to day. I deal with a lot of overpacked boxes that are blowing apart at the seams. These I have to tape together as I load them. I don't know what FX does UPS has their trucks preloaded I load my own every morning. Just to give you an example of my morning. We start at 6AM Since I normally run to 8 to 10 PM I get in around 6:30 to a pile of freight massed behind my truck. Once that is loaded we have freight coming off the plane and loaded straight to the trunk off the belt. There's really no time to check what shape the packages are in. They are just loaded regardless. If it comes thru damaged we're told to load it and let the customer refuse it...........that is if we see the customer. I have an 1 1/2 hr drive to my first stop and all the importance is put upon making service. It doesn't matter if you truck was neatly packed once you go around the 1st corner it's all over the place. I once was hit in the head by a box of screws from Sears at a stop sign. Damn near knocked me out!
I go into overkill mode when I'm shipping out. One guy I sold an amp to said he thought he could drop the box from the 2nd floor window without any damage.
a No bubble wrap
b No styrofoam inserts
c The packing material was old work uniforms jammed in there real good!
It just takes a lil' common sense!
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Jul 28, 2007 12:34 p.m. Proteus:
If a Fed Ex representative had any reason to suspect they could not deliver such a self-evidently non-standard package successfully, the time to object was before they accepted it. (I suspect they accepted it for the same reason my "dumb" Fed Ex lady turned helpful – to DO BUSINESS, take the money, and sort it all out later.)
Shel sez I'm wrong. This is no surprise.
So we come up even in circular reasoning – going in opposite directions, based on our reads of the (very incomplete) third-hand information.
Frankly, I see the logic on both sides of the question. But I question our (that is, your and my) motivations for posting.
You see a "ton of evidence" that it wasn't a proper packing job; I see evidence that the bass was at least not NEGligently packed, and plenty of evidence that, in any case, the shipment was grossly and negligently mishandled.
We've made those points, from our third-hand observations, and now I suspect we're putting a lot of energy into defending our positions simply because they're our positions.
We're both waxing pompous and defensive about a situation where neither of us has enough information to draw conclusions – which no doubt makes us both look ridiculous. We might come to completely different conclusions if we had all the "facts." We might swap positions. We might even agree with each other.
But we haven't seen the pack job inside the case (although JeffO did); we don't know what conversation passed between the shipper and Fed Ex on the other end. We don't know if it WAS Fed Ex, or one of their agents (which shouldn't matter). I don't recall if it was insured. We don't know what conversations Matt has had with the shipper, or what progress he's made with Fed Ex since reporting the problem.
I'm not really confident to pass judgment in such a situation – are you? And if we WERE, our opinions mean jack to Fed Ex anyway.
Furthermore it's a situation in which neither of us has a stake, other than defending our debating honor. Absent more actual facts, at this point we're bringing no new perspective to the discussion.
Matt, sorry the bass got whacked. The most honorable thing to come out of the situation is your refusal to go after the shipper, who sold his bass to pay his medical bills and SEEMS to have made a good-faith effort to pack it well. Kudos for compassion on your part – particularly since you're the ONE guy in this who SHOULDn't be left holding the bag. Err...broken bass.
Now if you can get the corporation to take a nickel out of their scamsurance fund, perhaps the slapping may commence.
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Jul 28, 2007 2:23 p.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Proteus said: I'm not really confident to pass judgment in such a situation – are you?
After packing 10-20 guitars a week for nearly 2 years, yes, I feel confident that the bass wasn't packed right.
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Jul 28, 2007 2:29 p.m. wenzel:
Let's all just calm down and chill... I don't think anyone is questioning your integrity Shelton. I know at least I am not. FedEx should be held responsible for the damage, they BROKE it! If not, Matt, do you have renters insurance? Call your insurance company, to them it'll prabably be a drop in the bucket to replace... Just trying to help out and also to diffuse a potentially bad situation between one of our board sponsors and the members here.
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Jul 28, 2007 3:27 p.m. Proteus:
Well, I'm satisfied then.
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Jul 28, 2007 3:28 p.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Let's have a beer!
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Jul 28, 2007 4:22 p.m. roadjunkie:
Any which way you look at it the bottom line is that Matt's the victim here!
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Jul 28, 2007 4:36 p.m. TAG4:
Shelton--Wouldn't it have been good also to slacken the strings and lay the bridge down and wrap it up?
TAG4
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Jul 28, 2007 5:09 p.m. MattYeoman:
You see Shelton, I have not bothered reading any of your posts, except for that first line about my analogy not making any sense. You're not paying attention at all if it doesn't make sense to you. I'm talking about CUSTOMER SERVICE. I'm talking about GETTING WHAT YOU PAY FOR WITHOUT HAVING TO F*CKING BABYSIT THE PERSON DOING THE JOB. If 'that guy driving the truck' doesn't have to give a shit about each and every package in his care, then he's useless at his job. I will question everyone's integrity all I feel like. Board sponsor or not. I'm not a slave to someone elses dollars, and I'm no ones ass kissing PC bitch. Do I believe that Shelton here packages his instruments with care. Yes, I do. That's why he keeps arguing with me, because he gives a damn about that much. Do I believe that he has a good attitude towards customer service? I still remain unconvinced.
If Fed Ex's job is to ship items without breaking them, then in this case they didn't do their job. I see at as clearly as that, and I will not be convinced otherwise.
I've talked to a number of people who play doublebass who have had their basses packaged during shipping in just the same way mine was. And their basses were NOT (that's NOT) damaged. I have in fact talked to Strangy (of Klingonz, formerly Mad Sin) who has shipped his basses all over the WORLD in their hardshell cases with NO DAMAGE.
And to answer Proteus, yes it was insured. They were paid to ship the bass properly, and then paid extra in case they broke it. So I see no reason at all why Fed Ex doesn't owe me money.
And lastly, I don't really understand why I feel like I'm being attacked when I DIDN'T PACKAGE THE BASS.
Now. I'm actually going to settle down and actually drink a beer, until someone else gives me reason to feel otherwise...
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Jul 28, 2007 5:52 p.m. Proteus:
So that's still the thing, Shel – regardless whether the bass was packed well enough to protect it from Fedatomic Express, they accepted it for shipment (presumably noticing it didn't look just like every cardboard box of the day) AND accepted money for insurance.
Then they hauled off and sploded it.
Pass the PBR.
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Jul 28, 2007 6:36 p.m. Hobie:
MattY
I don't see anyone attacking you, but I do understand you feeling that; often if I write about something and it is cricised at all, even if they are not my ideas or actions I have discussed, then I irrationaly feel it is aimed at me. I think this is probably a normal reaction.
And without meaning to criticise you we are all placed in a bit of a bind; inasmuch as many could criticise the guy that shipped it. But you give a strong and commendable reason for not having any expectation he should have to contribute. And I for one have not felt like jumping in and questioning his role in all this.
We don't know what discussions, or agreements, you had regarding packing and shipping of the guitar. To me his personal circumstances may or may not be real as people do fib! If he is at fault, I would feel that he should, irrespective of his personal circumstances, take some responsibility.
A discussion about the merits of packing is quite usefull, and maybe you shouldn't be taking this personally. People have different views. And maybe Shelton has received a bit of unreasonable heat over the ideas he expresses. I understand him to be saying in short: that the reality is there are flaws in teh shipping process and service can suffer. As a consequence if you are dealing with the real world, packing should be overdone rather than relying on an optimum level of handling by couriers that could be expected to occur in an imaginary ideal world. Human error is a reality and no mission statement, service goals, and training will totally eliminate this.
The availability of special "travel" cases in the market, notably products such as the "clam" that goes over a hard case suggests that problems with ordinary hard cases occur frequently enough, and are well enough known, for many to consider the purchase of them.
Sure people have shipped all over the world without a hitch, I have travelled within australia hundreds of time by air and never lost luggage; but it happens. I have also received many guitars from OS and not had a problem; but if I continue it probably will one day; I carry insurance.
And yeah, at the end of the day, you have insurance and they accepted the case for shipping and accepted your insurance. Hopefully this will resolve the problem.
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Jul 28, 2007 7:02 p.m. Pappy:
I hope this works out well for you, Matt and when you get a new bass I hope you'll post pics of it not busted up.
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Jul 29, 2007 4:32 p.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Proteus said: So that's still the thing, Shel – regardless whether the bass was packed well enough to protect it from Fedatomic Express, they accepted it for shipment (presumably noticing it didn't look just like every cardboard box of the day) AND accepted money for insurance.
From Fed Ex's terms and conditions which you accept when you ship any package: "All packages must be prepared and packed by the shipper for safe transportation with ordinary care in handling in an express-transportation environment....Packages cannot be wrapped in kraft paper."
That line means that YOU need to make sure the item is packed right, not them. Fed Ex assumes you know how to pack the item you are sending. Kraft paper could easily be changed to saran wrap.
"You must use FedEx packaging or new corrugated boxes in good, rigid condition of adequate size to allow a minimum of 2 to 3 inches of cushioning of contents on the top, bottom and sides"
That's pretty explicit. It basically tells me I should box the item up. There's a few exceptions like tires in the document but common sense really prevails.
Here's some helpful links on how to pack a guitar. This info should apply to any musical instruments and probably anything you can toss in a box:
This one is about Nationals but it has good info: http://www.vintagenationals.com/Shipping%20a%20National%20Guitar%20temp.htm
Another good one: http://www.collingsforum.com/Pack%20your%20guitar/index.html
Here's a good one on flying with a guitar: http://www.win.net/mainstring/carryon.html
Hopefully someone will find this stuff useful.
I'm not sure why all of Matt's rage is directed at me and why he must question my customer service, especially considering my record speaks for itself. I didn't call him names. I didn't resort to personal attacks. I'm not sure where the aggro attitude comes from. I think some of the responses here speak more about folk's character than the accusations do.
My position on this comes from EXPERIENCE. I basically pack boxes FOR A LIVING. I'm not playing internet expert throwing in an opinion on something just so I can see a half page long post from myself. I also get tons of boxes a week and get to see the sorry packing jobs. I own two stand up basses of my own, an old Kay and an old mystery fiberglass job. I'm not speculating at the size, weight and durability of them. I played with the Kay in a gypsy jazz band for about a year as well as a lot of fill in gigs. It got carried around a lot. I know how big and bulky they are.
Hopefully this thread will be educational for anyone shipping a musical instrument. I hate getting crappy boxes in and holding my breath as I open the box. Mayber threads like this will help that.
Even if Fed Ex didn't have guidelines and some stuff spelled out in the user agreement, this stuff would rely on common sense. No one would step up to the plate and admit that they would think of shipping a guitar in a hardshell case only. Common sense says that's not enough protection. Common sense also says that something roughly 3 times as big would need a higher level of protection. I have to assume that the instrument was tuned to pitch. Generally that's a no no but I guess it's common with basses. Common sense would say that HUNDREDS of pounds of string pressure pulling on a neck would mean that the neck should be supported. It was indicated that when the neck broke, the pickup mounted at the end of the fingerboard touched the top of the bass. That means the entire neck moved up which means there was enough room in the case for the neck to come up. It wasn't packed tight enough. Pretty simple.
It's a tough world out there. Fed Ex, UPS, USPS, etc have a lot of hard working people that do their jobs. It's totally not fair to those people to have a thread like this, especially when they aren't to blame. Your idea of what the ideal conditions are versus the real world are 2 different things. Folks can assume that Fed Ex is making a gazillion dollars on insurance and that they are in league with Satan and drown kittens or whatever. It doesn't matter. You pack the boxes to a reasonable standard, insure them (either through Fed Ex or your own insurance service like Heritage) and accept their rules. Otherwise you find someone else to ship by.
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Jul 29, 2007 5:47 p.m. Proteus:
Hey, you know what, Shel.
I put up a long, verbose, and somewhat defensive (I mean, I was personally attacked, no?) post in response to your response to my response to your dismissive, aggressive pontifical post, but I'm taking it down because I don't think anyone ought to give a ratsass about our pissing match. I'm not even interested in having it.
(Note that I didn't question your integrity or competence as a guitar dealer. I'm sure you do a good job.)
This remains, however.
Despite your insistence on defending FedEx and their guidelines, you have not answered the core question:
If this package self-evidently did NOT meet their guidelines, why did they accept it? And why did they sell insurance for it?Nor its corollary:
Once they've accepted an obviously non-compliant package, and sold insurance, wouldn't a reasonable person assume they have accepted liability for it? -
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Jul 29, 2007 7:40 p.m. Hobie:
Prote; as much as I dislike legal loop holes and rip offs I am sure the shipping and insurance agreement specifys "adequate" packing, in what ever terms, and also that they do not take responsibility for checking that your packing is adequate etc.
This is how it's done over here if I ever bother to check.
And I guess they take the insurance coz you ask for it and pay it. They don't care if it is pointless; to them it's caveat emptor.
It may not be moral or ethical. But it is the real world I live in and I try to be cautious.
And on other threads we have everyone talking about freedom, and taking personal responsibility.
I didn't see Shelton as pontificating but from recollection saw him expressing frustration that people don't think it through when they ship something and that guitars etc are shipped with inadequate protection. Just re-read what I assume is the shelton post in question. It was pointed and opinionated based on his experience. To me it was not pontificating.
And I think this thread is really usefull as a discussion about shipping and packing realities, rather than a diatribe against the evil of large shipping organisations. They just do what most do, which is provide their service and limit their exposure within the legal requirements.
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Jul 29, 2007 9:34 p.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Proteus said: If this package self-evidently did NOT meet their guidelines, why did they accept it? And why did they sell insurance for it?
They accepted it because the terms and conditions you agree to state that the package "must be prepared and packed by the shipper for safe transportation with ordinary care in handling in an express-transportation environment." It becomes YOUR responsibility to pack it correctly, not theirs. That means YOU accept the responsibility of making sure it's right. They shouldn't have to check it to make sure it's packed to their standards.
Technically, the carriers don't provide insurance.They provide declared value. Declared Value is the carrier's limit of liability if the carrier does have liability.It's really not insurance and they even state that. It's legal loophole mumbo jumbo. Basically the carriers will pay for a damaged item if you can prove to them that they lost it or busted it due to negligence. They offer the service to everyone because you signed the terms and conditions stating that you have read and understand them. The terms contain the packing guidelines. By signing the terms, you have agreed that the item you send will be packaged according to those guidelines. I'm no lawyer but that's how I read it. Do they make gazillions in profits from it? Probably. You want real insurance? There's tons of companies that offer it. Lots of guitar sellers use a policy from a place like Heritage and just put a declared value of their deductible, say 500.00. Fed Ex bombs the box, you pay Heritage the deductible and they pay the claim. Fed Ex pays you the deductible back as a declared value claim. It's actually cheaper this way from what I understand as the carriers charge a ton for declared value coverage.
Fed Ex gives you a number to call to have your packaging evaluated: "For information on how to submit your packaging for testing or evaluation, please call 1.800.633.7019. Tips on packaging specific commodities (including flowers, computers and perishables) are available at fedex.com/us/services/packageshipment/packaging/tips.html."
They provide the declared value coverage to everyone because it is assumed everyone has packaged the item properly. Unfortunately an employee at a counter may not know a bass case from a canoe nor does employment mean that you know all aspects of your job. It isn't "self evident" that the item wasn't packed properly because frankly lots of boxes get shipped safely that don't meet the box guidelines. Fed Ex says it's OK to ship some items like boogie boards, luggage, rugs, TRANSIT CASES and a bunch of other similar items by wrapping them in a protective layer of something. In other words, the person at the counter could have thought the bass case was a TRANSIT CASE or LUGGAGE. A bass case could be anything to a layman. We also don't know if the person at the counter did or didn't object to the packing job. None of us were there.
Proteus said: Once they've accepted an obviously non-compliant package, and sold insurance, wouldn't a reasonable person assume they have accepted liability for it?
Nope. They accepted it in good faith that you packed it according to their guidelines which you agreed to. The definition of declared value, which is what you are buying, is that it's their limit of liability for their negligence. Not your negligence, their negligence. Here's your question turned around: Once an individual signs that they have read and agree to the terms and conditions, wouldn't a responsible person think that the signer should follow them? And if that person accepted these terms, wouldn't a reasonable person assume they have accepted liability for not following the terms?
Here's where the rubber meets the road: I know Hobie has shipped a few guitars (thanks by the way for the support on this one) and obviously I have as well. Statistically, we should be the guys with the most complaints as presumably we've shipped more guitars than you or Matt. Oddly enough, we don't have the same complaints about the service. Why does the service work and make sense for folks that use it way more but not for 2 (presumably) casual users?
Despite the layers of bureaucracy and legal loop holes, I find most of the big carriers work fine. I know how to effectively use their services. I know how to pack a box. I also know when to take responsibility for my own mistakes and actions as well and have realistic expectations about the process. God forbid that I have a busted guitar. If that happens, I'll gladly step up to the plate and pay for it out of my pocket if it turns out I'm negligent.
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Jul 29, 2007 9:44 p.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Something I forgot to add, and this is important, is that Fed Ex's rules for Musical Instruments are super strict. Technically they will not provide declared value coverage over 500.00 on "Guitars and other musical instruments that are more than 20 years old, and customized or personalized musical instruments.".
I had heard of this before and noticed it in the terms and conditions when reviewing them today . The reality of it may be totally different as I know tons of guitar dealers use Fed Ex. It may be their last resort with really stick claims and they seldom enforce it.
I haven't had a chance to review UPS' or USPS' terms but will. I have been considering adding insurance through my business policy and ditching the declared value stuff as it's costly ($27.50 on a 5000.00 guitar I shipped Friday!). I would imagine that they do indeed have similar clauses but rarely enforce them.
Just another piece of useful info.
