And I think if it was shipped inside a tank it would have fared even better-er. I think its all in what one deems as 'reasonable.' And the abuse it suffered was not in any way reasonable to me. This thing took a SERIOUS hit. Hard enough to rip two screws right out of wood. That's not a small thing. Thats not a slight drop from a conveyour belt to the floor. This is something else, serious amounts of force were applied to it, and no amount of carboard was gonna help.
FedEx Killed My King (Doublebass)
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- Rated: 29 ↑
Jul 26, 2007 8:09 p.m. MattYeoman:
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- Rated: 40 ↑
Jul 26, 2007 8:56 p.m. roadjunkie:
Sorry Matt! I have to admit after seeing that I'm ashamed to be in the same business as Fed-Ex!
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- Rated: 30 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 12:08 a.m. greg:
I will bet it was the handled off the conveyor belt by the guy in the Slayer t-shirt."Heydudes,look at this".insert visual image here.
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- Rated: 40 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 2:08 a.m. gretschman36:
Matt: I assumed it was in a carton. No?
If not, I get it. Maybe roadjunkie will know but it seems oddly shaped items get destroyed all the time.
Since it was not in a carton you better check on things. I had a claim denied because it was not shipped in an "approved carton".
Ask roadjunkie. He'll probably know.
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- Rated: 52 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 4:41 a.m. Zuma:
That is just frakking criminal. They should have cowboyed up, copped to the damage and offered to make it good on their own. You'd think they'd have the whole reliable shipping thing down by now.
I'd make a video of the damage and post it on YouTube with "How FedEx Ruined My Bass" prominently in the title.
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- Rated: 29 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 7:10 a.m. MattYeoman:
Gman said: Matt: I assumed it was in a carton. No?
No it wasn't. Remember when I said this>>
Me said:
This thing took a SERIOUS hit. Hard enough to rip two screws right out of wood. That's not a small thing. Thats not a slight drop from a conveyour belt to the floor. This is something else, serious amounts of force were applied to it, and no amount of carboard was gonna help.
How on earth can they use that as an excuse? If it wasn't in an approved carton than the smurf did they accept it? Whats you opinion roadjunkie, and how abotu you greg, you're a postie too. Was the hardshell case, specially designed to protect this exact instrument, not sufficient? Would a slim piece of carboard have prevented this?
That last one was a rhetorical question....
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- Rated: 27 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 8:29 a.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Would you ship a guitar by wrapping a case in saran wrap and throwing a label on it? That's crazy! If I got any musical instrument packed that way via UPS/Fed Ex/USPS, I would refuse it before it hit the front door.
The feet on the case could have caught on something. That's a good enough reason to put the thing in a box. What screwed up the feet may not have been what broke the neck too. That could have been another imapct. And it wouldn't take a huge impact to rip off a set of screw on feet. It doesn't take much of an impact to break a neck if all that seperates it from the floor is some fiberglass. The hardshell case is not designed as a shipping container and is not a substitute for a crate, box or carton! It's there to get the thing safely from gig to gig. Otherwise the next guitar you order from Musician's Friend will come in case with a bunch of stamps on the front! How scary would that be?
It would have taken an hour or so to build a box for that thing and pack it right. It should have had a box around it with some sort of suitable packing material cushioning it. A couple 4-12 cabinet boxes, some extra cardboard and a ton of tape would make a suitable carton. A trip to your local recycling center for a refrigerator box would work too. Does King ship the basses new like that? I think not and for a very good reason.
None of the carriers should be liable if you don't know how to pack something nor should they have to accept or deny packages based on that. Had that bass been packed right, you would be playing it now.
The major carriers ship probably thousands of musical instruments a day. A vast majority of them arrive safe and sound. Of the ones that get broken, a vast majority of them aren't packed right. This bass wasn't packed right. Simple as that.
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Jul 27, 2007 12:16 p.m. Ratrod:
My best guess would be is that they dropped it from the plane at 10,000 feet high.
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Jul 27, 2007 5:10 p.m. MattYeoman:
Okay Shelton, thank you for destroying my day.
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Jul 27, 2007 6:15 p.m. Proteus:
Yeah.
Not that he needs it, but I have to come to Matt's defense here.
The first thing the carrier will ask about a damaged instrument is whether or not it was IN ITS HARDSHELL case...and they'll be reluctant to honor any claims if it was not. (I've been there.)
A jolt to a neck which is improperly supported at headstock and/or heel is the usual culprit in a neck or headstock break. So I suppose it's worth asking King if their case has such proper support. My first guess would be that any case that goes to the trouble of being a hardshell case for an instrument that size WOULD have proper support for most situations, surely including shipping with any standard carrier.
It would have been tested in that scenario hundreds of times (or more).
I've unpacked hundreds of guitars (as I know Shel has), from manufacturers, retailers, etailers, repair shops, and any number of Joe Bloes. The one which had a broken neck was shipped from England in a wholly inadequate cardboard box – the others have fared well, whether doubleboxed in cardboard, in the low-end maker's coffin-shaped cardboard cheeser, or in hardshell cases inside cardboard boxes.
Gretschs, for instance, come in their hardshell cases, in a cardboard outer box, with origami-folded cardboard stabilizers at top, bottom, and midpoint. These keep the case from rattling around in the box – but they give little more impact protection to the top and bottom of the case than saran wrap would. They could do little to absorb the energy from the kind of jolt Matt's King has to have taken.
In particular, the heavier and bulkier the item, the less structural strength cardboard is going to provide in protection from anything more than abrasion.
Your rant doesn't make sense, Shel. You say it doesn't take much of an impact to break a neck if all that seperates it from the floor is some fiberglass.
What? How much fiberglass, how shaped? Solid and formfitting or pink insulation? With enough of the right fiberglass packed under it, you could walk on the neck and it wouldn't even flex.
But where did fiberglass come into the story? Matt said The case itself is made of plywood and kevlar. And its huge, all kinds of cushion and room to absorb impacts.
There's a goodly distance from fiberglass to plywood and kevlar.
You're saying the sructural rigidity of a cardboard box would keep a form-fitted plywood-and-kevlar case safer than it otherwise was? It might keep it from getting marred (as the saran wrap would), assuming it wasn't punctured, but I don't see much other protection there.
I dunno. We're ALL speculating, other than Matt, because we haven't seen the evidence of the case – how it's constructed, and exactly how it was damaged.
But we can assume that MOST basses shipped by this shipper, in this way, in this case, by any normal carrier, are NOT damaged like this on arrival – or they would have found a better shipping method.
Whatever happened THIS time was waaaay outside normal shipping-and-handling risk; the bass was treated in a way against which no reasonable pack job could have protected it.
But none of that is the issue here. Maybe it could have been boxed. Maybe the case has inadequate support inside for the neck – but not in any way that could be fortified by a external cardboard box. (And maybe nothing but 12" of form-fitting stuffing around the whole thing and packing in a spring-loaded rigid steel flotation crate would have sufficed.)
What's certain is that it was beat to hell during a shipping process that was NOT normal. And it's even more certain that it's not MATT'S fault! The shipper and the shipping company need to have a sincere heart-to-heart and get the man a new bass.
I'm guessing if the same thing actually happened to you, Shel, you'd be as upset as Matt – and at the shipping company more than the shipper.
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Jul 27, 2007 6:52 p.m. roadjunkie:
Yeah I really hate to concur with that conclusion but depending on the company the ability to file a claim differs. I know UPS requires at least 4 inches of protection on all all sides of a box when shipping an amp. I'm afraid they're going to tell you that the parcel wasn't properly protected. That's no excuse for that getting busted up like that! That there's absolutely no excuse for! The bottom line is it's the shipper's fault if I'm understanding the story straight. The case should have been crated.
Fed-Ex doesn't have a good track record as far as accepting blame for damaged goods. Sorry to say it but you may have to go after the seller to get your money back. Don't jump to any conclusions yet until this plays itself out. Things could just go your way!
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- Rated: 29 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 8:45 p.m. MattYeoman:
One other thing I have not mentioned is how the instrument was protected on the inside of the case with that bubble wrap stuff in areas where it had a small amount of room. You know, that plastic sheet of plastic with air pockets in it that are so very fun to pop. There were two sheets of that. One around the head stock, and one around the neck. Why? To protect it from damage. Ask Jeff, he opened it up and saw it for himself as well. Bubble wrap. And I'd HATE to go after the seller for this. The reason he sold this bass was to pay off some of his medical bills he incurred while off work..... From an objective veiw point I'd have to agree with Proteus. The bass I bought was NOT a delicate instrument. Its played by PROFESSIONAL musicians all over the world. Some of whom STAND on theirs. And no, there is no additional support added, its stock, like mine. These are very well built instruments that can stand a jolt or two on their own, let alone inside a CUSTOM MADE and FITTED case (worth $600 USD new) while covered in bubble wrap on the interior of said case. This just isn't REASONABLE. A tear in the fabric of the case, a little ding in the case. Okay. Things happen. But the destruction of a a solid piece of wood (the neck) is just not REASONABLE to me. I don't think they were paid in excess of $400 to ship this thing like it was a brick.
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- Rated: 27 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 9:20 p.m. Shelton's Guitars:
I'm sorry I poo poo'd your day Matt but I'm really having a hard time putting all of the blame on Fed Ex's shoulders. I ship UPS and have only had 1 damage claim in 2 years. It was for a cracked knob on a Guild Bluesbird. Guitars, amps, parts, effects, bodies, necks, you name it, I've shipped it with no problem. Quite a bit through USPS with no problem either and lots of overseas. It's not fair to blame them in my opinion when the instrument was sent the way it was sent. Shipping companies are generally forum boogie men and everyone always says things "like go get the bastards" or "oh my god, I can't believe they broke your glass eye!" without even thinking that the person shipping could have screwed up. Don't get me wrong, the shippers do their share of box crunching, throwing and trashing but that's why you over pack and over insure.
I would be on the phone to the seller. He packed the thing wrong. It's his responsibility to make it right. Like I said, an hours worth of work could have made a big difference. You would have paid 400.00 to ship it whether it was packed right or wrong. If Fed Ex did get crazy with it and dropped a load of bricks on it, at least you could say it was packed right. It doesn't matter if a gorilla in a Fed Ex suit jumps on your Faberge egg collection and then proceeds to play hockey with it. If you stuck it in an envelope or a cereal box to ship it they are going to go with the most reasonable explanation of how and why it got broken.
A cardboard box with newspaper packed or another suitable material around the instrument would have done a world of difference to make sure that the bass arrived safe and sound. I'm not just talking about cardboard, I'm talking about a packed box. At least bubble wrap instead of saran wrap.
I said fiberglass because I was thinking of those big bass and cello cases you see all the time. It doesn't matter if the case was fiberglass or plywood. It doesn't take much of a wack DIRECTLY on a case in the right place to cause a problem. If it had something around it, some of a shock could have been absorbed. It doesn't matter Pro because the manufacturers don't ship them that way. Even those tight wads have figured that this isn't a safe way to ship. I wouldn't use any manufacturer's packing as a standard. They all do it on the cheap. The fact that they don't stick a label on a hardshell case tells me that they think it's unsafe.
Again, would you ship a guitar in a hardshell case with saran wrap around it? I sure as hell wouldn't! Why is a bass different even if it has a fancy "Custom made and fitted" case? The don't ship them like this from the manufacturer! Most of the time, they come via truck on a pallet. Manufacturers also underpack stuff as they have figured out what the best ratio of broken instruments to added profit is. If manufacturers figured out that they could ship instruments wrapped in saran wrap without losing a good percentage, they would just to save money on shipping.
I'll say it again, cases are to get your instrument from gig to gig, not as a substitute for a shipping box! All cases are designed to some extent to offer some neck support. All the neck support in the world isn't going to matter with a direct impact! As I said before, the incident that ripped the feet off may not have been the same incident that broke the neck. The simple fact that the thing had feet protruding from it that could get caught on something is reason enough to box it up.
You think that it isn't REASONABLE for the thing to be broken, I think it wasn't reasonable to ship it in such a manner. I think you should contact the seller and get him to commit to reimbursing you for the bass or at least a repair no matter what Fed Ex says about the insurance.
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- Rated: 40 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 9:25 p.m. roadjunkie:
Matt get as many pictures as you can of the case what was inside the case. You are going to have to document this as much as possible. No doubt this took one hell of a jolt to get it in this condition and I'm only trying to give you their perspective.
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- Rated: 44 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 9:30 p.m. Jeff O(h, Look Me In The Eye):
I've droped many a guitar and bass (electric) without the neck snapping. This thing took a major hit.
If the shippers are allowed to accept a shipment AND charge for insurance, it's criminal for them to not honor a claim. THEY should be responsible for checking on the packaging, if they choose to accept the money for insurance.
Fedex tried that 4" on all sides shit with me. They paid, the entire amount. They ruined my amp. It took 30+ calls but I was relentless. If there are any contraints to their policy, it has to be conspicuous to the purchaser - meaning, whomever accepts the package for delivery is responsible to point out any deficiencies in packaging that may compromise an insurance claim.
You'd have to be fckunig blind to not see that a BASS was in it's CASE and not in a BOX.
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Jul 27, 2007 9:33 p.m. greg:
Well matt considering it was bubble wrapped inside i believe this was still exposed to some extremely carless handling to cause the type of damage done to your bass.Any dolt with half a brain at fedex would have looked at it once and thought.hmmmm"looks like an expensive instrument in there".My advice when talking to these people is to be as nice as can be and in control and if that does not work,Tell em you have an writer friend at USA TODAY.Might make a good story!Good luck matt,and keep us updated.
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- Rated: 27 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 9:46 p.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Jeff said: Fedex tried that 4" on all sides shit with me.
Why is that shit? It takes an extra few minutes to pack it right! Why does Fed Ex have to check your work? When Geico gives you car insurance, they don't come and check your brakes do they?
That bass could have fallen over and gotten the neck broken. It could have gotten rammed by other packages into something. The exposed feet could have caught on something. A million things could have happened to it. Look at any repair shop at instruments and most suffer damage from relatively harmless spills. Looking at that bass, it seems to have popped right at the dovetail and where the heel was scarfed on. That's doesn't tell me it went through WW III. An underpacked instrument could easily have caused that.
greg said: Any dolt with half a brain at fedex would have looked at it once and thought.hmmmm"looks like an expensive instrument in there"
Why is it Fed Ex's responsibility to give special treatment to certain boxes? It's the person shipping the item's job to pack it so it gets there. You pay the same rate whether you're shipping an expensive bass or a set of pots and pans. It's treated the same. You can't expect the guy in the truck to give a shit as it's not his job. It's the guy packing the instrument's job.
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- Rated: 27 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 9:51 p.m. Shelton's Guitars:
Just out of curiosity, was this bass shipped with the strings tuned up to keep the bridge and soundpost in place?
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- Rated: 29 ↑
Jul 27, 2007 9:57 p.m. mark t:
You know what, I'm sorry, but here's what I think. You're paying a smurfing world-renowned delivery company to send something overnight that's obviously not a smuring letter or some other not fragile thing.
They had it for 24 smurfing hours. I've seen couriers at work....lob this, throw that, smash that. Not all of them of course, but some. They had it for 24 hours. You see a big case, you place it in the transport vehicle, you take it off. I've moved my bass in NO case from city to city in the front seat of my car and never snapped it up like that.
I know that packaging is important, but saying that Matt shoulda had it bubble-wrapped, hardshell cased, in a foam box, lead lining, titanium shell, with kevlar coating is just ridiculous.
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Jul 28, 2007 1:04 a.m. greg:
My customers rely on me to give a shit and i do.Peoples goods are meant to be handled in a decent manner.That bass is F%$ked up and any supervisor worth his grain would admit it.It was incredibly obvious this was not box of copying paper.Some miserable s.o.b. probably got chewed out and took it out on this item.With canada post this would have been handled by other carriers before it reached us and to monitor its condition through its journey would have been tough but this item was in the care of"one"carrier for 24 hrs. Thats piss poor.
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- Rated: 40 ↑
Jul 28, 2007 7:21 a.m. Hobie:
It's certainly a bummer MYoeman.
I used to put my guitars through the airport check in with just the TKL case; case and guitar got damaged; prob from a drop.
Now I use a Carton as well, and am going to invest in an SKB; they guarantee it is safe as a "travel" case.
Your typical hardcase, say the G one, TKL I believe, is not a travel case to my mind. It's fine in your own handling for travel, but not to entrust with others.
Lucky for me I had insurance on that trip.
I would never hand a guitar over to a courier without cardboard boxing and additional packing as well; I think the rated cardboard shipping boxes absorb a lot of energy, not fool proof so I insure as well. I also have a feeling that it is a more difficult item to throw about as it is larger, and clumsier to move, not like a case with a convenient handle to swing it by.
The physics of it suggest that a Double bass requires relatively more protection for travel than a hollow body. I think bone size in larger land animals increase in size/density exponentially (rhino leg bones compared with human leg bones would be a good example).
I've shipped and received a lot of guitars for one reason or another, the only trouble was on a badly packed one that had no hard case as well.
Hope it works out okay for you though.
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Jul 28, 2007 7:26 a.m. MattYeoman:
Shelton said: Why is it Fed Ex's responsibility to give special treatment to certain boxes? It's the person shipping the item's job to pack it so it gets there. You pay the same rate whether you're shipping an expensive bass or a set of pots and pans. It's treated the same. You can't expect the guy in the truck to give a shit as it's not his job. It's the guy packing the instrument's job.
Yes, why is it Fed Ex's job to make sure the package getting shipped to me gets to me in the condition it was given to them in? It's not like it's their job to deliver parcels free from harm. Why should they give a shit? In fact, why should anyone? So here's what I'm going to do; I'm going to go and get a job at a restaurant. Every single thing I cook is going to end up on the floor before I put it on your plate Shelton. Why should I care? It's not my job to make sure you don't get sick, or get gross, dirty, hairy, DEFECTIVE food. Hell, it's not my job to give a good god damn about the customer at all. So, I'll be serving up that food fresh off the floor just for you buddy boy. It'll be great, because I don't have to care about the customer.
And this, my man Shelton, is the attitude wrong with the work ethic in North America. Remind me to NEVER do business with you or anyone else at Shelton's Guitars, if this is the case with your business as well. You have given me no other reason to believe that it is otherwise.
And Greg, I don't need to lie about a friend at New York Times. I've got a few dozen musicians here, who knows how many lurkers, and just as many more on another internet site, all calling them a bunch of no good lazy jerks that couldn't care less about their customers. But thank you for the idea.
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Jul 28, 2007 7:39 a.m. wenzel:
Matt, what did the company that shipped it to you say? I would almost be willing to let them claim it on their insurance and just send you a new one? Ever thought of that?
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Jul 28, 2007 8:05 a.m. MattYeoman:
Wenzel, the company that shipped it to me was a guy named Chuck selling his used bass to pay off medical bills he incurred while in the hospital and away from work for awhile. He doesn't have insurance, and I have absolutely no heart to ask him to pay for this. I'd rather pay for the repair work myself if Fed Ex punks out on me.
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Jul 28, 2007 8:24 a.m. Jeff O(h, Look Me In The Eye):
Shelton:
In my case, the amp WAS encased in several inches of foam, with spacers from the cardboard box protecting it. I couldn't measure exactly HOW MUCH because the assholes demolished the ENTIRE PACKAGE.
This PC world is killing America. Nobody is at fault. Fat people blame McDonalds for heart failure. Stupid people blame the school system for their unemployment. Nobody is responsible for themselves anymore.
Forget the fact that you are a PAID PROFESSIONAL who accepts compensation to PROPERLY PERFORM THE DUTIES OF YOUR JOB.
If FEDEX and UPS don't want to accept responsiblity for packages - PUT IT IN 2 FOOT LETTERS ON A BANNER AT THE COUNTER:
WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR PACKAGE.
WE NO LONGER SELL INSURANCE.
See how much business they do.
In Michigan, I could NOT privately sell one of my old cars for 7 years after quitting my job (8 months) as a Car Salesman. BY LAW - I was considered an EXPERT IN THE FIELD. If I sold a car and the brakes went, well I could be held responsible. I think it's a good law.
If the shipping companies want to accept a package AND sell insurance, it is their responsibility to INFORM THE SHIPPER of the consequences they may be liable for.
THEY ARE THE EXPERTS IN THE FIELD.
I am not a packager, shipper, professional delivery person. I am NOT experienced in shipping parcels, and rely on THEIR expertise to help me make informed decisions.
It works.
The people at the UPS Store on the corner have TALKED ME OUT of shipping a Mesa Boogie F-100. It is too big, too heavy, to fit into package this will safely convey a 100lb anchor. Which is what it becomes to them.
Under 70lbs and you're golden. After that, you're better off with a freight company. Package it to withstand 2 weeks of temperature change, but it will be handled by PROFESSIONALS who deal with large heavy packaging WITHOUT DAMAGING THEM.
Not throwing them from one conveyor to another to the back of the truck, because 5 million packages every day HAVE to be PACKAGED right so ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE ARE DAMAGED.
SO - got get fat as a cow eating Big Macs and die. Your wife can sue and live like a queen with new fun bags, a convertible Corvette, and a 25 year old boyfriend.
NOTE - this last comment was NOT directed at any particular person, just all you lard butts in general.
