The Gretsch Pages: Discussions: Other Guitars: cheap Jazz Box?

cheap Jazz Box?

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- Rated: 56 ↑
Aug 24, 2008 7:02 p.m. yettoblaster:

Epi Casino's are fine for Jazz. Grant Green played a Gibson ES-330 and made several albums with it. A Casino is the same guitar.

It doesn't look like a fat jazzer, but they are structurally quite similiar to a full hollowbody archtop.

When I mentioned the feel of my G100's neck was superior to the feel of my Godin 5th Ave's neck it just felt "slicker." Once strung with flatwounds, they both were fine for playing. The Gretsch had nicer fret ends, but not by much. The Godin's rosewood fretboard was more open grained and didn't feel as slick as the Gretsch, which was more rounded on the edges and had more curvature to the fretboard radius. Both had vintage size frets and the same scale length. The Gretsch's fretboard felt sealed, and the big block Mother of Plastic position markers were classy looking to my sensibilities.
- Rated: 31 ↑
Aug 24, 2008 9:20 p.m. do not be afraid:

Grant Green, you say?

damn he looks cool there! i probably don't know as much about him as i should (or, really, Jazz guitar in general), but i like that he gets an almost horn-like sound out of his guitar, and how he can sound so fat and warm and juicy, but still have a real crisp “bite” to the sound (which, of course, has to be P-90s!) — mostly because that's kind of what i go for in my pathetic attempts at Jazz! it's the same thing i like about Charlie Christian…

but, it never really even occured to me to try to play Jazz on the Casino, and that might be the problem — i mean, can i play Jazz on my Telecaster? sure! does my Telecaster inspire me to play Jazz? nope! but, then again, maybe the Casino really is the perfect Jazz guitar for me, and i was just too stupid to notice? maybe… let's stick with that for now, though, and move onto the most important question — which color is the most “Jazzy?”
- Rated: 114 ↑
Aug 24, 2008 9:38 p.m. wenzel:

Why don't you go all out and get the John Lennon re-issue Casino. I think it'd be a better player than the baseline models overall and it has some cool Beatle mojo to it! Just a suggestion. There were only 1,965 of them made as well! Yoko Ono had a part in making them by allowing Gibson to copy every single detail down to the serial number and label.

Natural or sunburst are the most jazzy. Maroon is too Kinks-ish...
- Rated: 31 ↑
Aug 24, 2008 10:05 p.m. do not be afraid:

wenzel: Why don't you go all out and get the John Lennon re-issue Casino.
because those aren't cheap!
anyways, taking a look through YouTube, i came across this — is Green playing the ES-330 there? i'm guessing “yes”, but i could be wrong… that tone is real nice! still, after hearing some more of Grant Green, i'm liking Charlie Christian a lot more! he's just got the perfect Jazz tone, and he plays with such intensity! i mean, listen to this! now that's Jazz! heck, it's practically even Rock 'n' Roll! wait — “practically?” no! it is Rock 'n' Roll! listen to that, then Rock Around The Clock, and just try to tell me those are different genres!

but i'm getting way off track here, now…
- Rated: 114 ↑
Aug 24, 2008 10:07 p.m. wenzel:

How is this for cheap?

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gitane-DG250-SelmerMaccaferri-Style-Jaz...

Django would be proud.
- Rated: 114 ↑
Aug 24, 2008 10:11 p.m. wenzel:

That was an awesome clip. You're right, that was rock and roll, but it had the wrong back beat to it. If he had told the drummer to play a straight forward shuffle like Ringo, they'd have invented R&R for sure. Nice clip.
- Rated: 13 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 11:37 a.m. DeArmond:

wenzel that's right, if he had a diff back beat "rock n roll" might have been invented rock n roll like a decade or so earlier. Listen to Charlie Christian and listen to Franny Beecher on the old Comets records. Franny is like Charlie Christian on speed. You can hear the influence. I always thought he was influenced by CC then later read that Franny is a big fan of CC. Of course later Franny played guitar for Benny Goodman, the man that CC played for. I mean later by later after CC played for Goodman but after that Franny played for Bill Haley. Franny is a jazzer and you can hear that he incorporated his jazz skills in Haley's records but didn't plan on being in a rock band just happened I guess.
- Rated: 13 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 11:42 a.m. DeArmond:

By the way back in CC's time there were no flatwounds it's safe to say, therefore he used rounds but back then were there nickel or steel strings or were there just bronze strings as used on acoustic archtops and flattops? Just curious 'cause trying to figure out what strings he used. Not brand but type.
- Rated: 37 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 11:49 a.m. Rocketman:

It's NOT rock 'n roll.
- Rated: 37 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 11:52 a.m. Rocketman:

This is closer to rock around the clock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFkEyvhkqpc
- Rated: 204 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 12:00 p.m. Proteus:

Yes, well, many of the early rock-n-rollers brought prodigious chops and a very sophisticated musical sensibility to the music because they had been playing swing, jazz, jump blues, or something of the sort, before they were drafted into service as standard-bearers for the rock & roll army.

Of course Franny Beecher didn't "plan on being a rock band." When "Rock Around the Clock" was recorded, there WAS no such thing as a "rock band."

That's why the skill and musicality of early rock & roll are so high. It hadn't been dumbed down yet.

There's no question that "jazz" can be played on a Tele, a 335, a Casino, a 175, any guitar mentioned, or a one-string diddley bow nailed to the doorframe of a sharecropper's shack.

But there's jazz guitar and there's jazz guitar, and they have different tones. Start a thread off looking for hollow-body archtop mostly-acoustic jazz boxes, and a confused reader might get the impression the quester is seeking that particular sort of mostly-acoustic tone, with lots of slappin' snap for driving home beat-me-daddy-4-to-a-bar rhythm and rippin' bright lead lines.

There's a world of difference between that and the warm, fat-n-chunky blunt-n-bubblin' lead tone one associates with ES series guitars.

No?
- Rated: 13 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 12:02 p.m. DeArmond:

Rocketman, yeah Hank Williams was a big time blues fan. He did play rock n roll in his own way that's very true. George Thorogood as you know did a nice cover of this song.

By the way this is rock too. It's some Boogie Woogie which is an ingredient of early rock n roll. Heck even the Beach Boys Boogie Woogied. Story is the Wilson's parents went on vacation and left Brian Wilson and company money to live on. Instead they rented instruments (probably starved after that) and Brian Wilson did some Boogie Woogie on piano and the rest is history. He taught that Boogie Woogie to the other guys and that was that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEuic3qkPn0&feature=related
- Rated: 13 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 12:03 p.m. DeArmond:

I want to know what kind of strings Danny Cedrone used on his ES-150 on Rock Around The Clock but no one seems to know. I asked an expert on Cedrone's guitar and even he didn't know. Flatwounds or rounds? To me they sound like flats but I'm probably wrong!
- Rated: 204 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 12:16 p.m. Proteus:

Sugar Chile's story, and it's a good-un: http://www.rockabilly.nl/references/messages/sugar_chile_robinson.htm
- Rated: 31 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 12:17 p.m. do not be afraid:

Proteus, honestly, i don't really know what i'm looking for! i originally was looking for just a “mostly acoustic” electric guitar, more so than even a “Jazz guitar” per-se, but then that's got me looking into actual, well, Jazz guitar playing, and now i've got this sort of “holy grail” Jazz guitar tone in my head, and i'm not really sure how to get it! all i can really say for sure is that it's not by turning the tone control down (which is how nearly all guitar players tell you to get “Jazz tone!”)
- Rated: 204 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 12:21 p.m. Proteus:

Nope, I know what you mean. I think you're talking about P90s or a CC pickup for that.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 12:33 p.m. JazzBoxJunky:

Dont forget the floating dearmond tone, Dudley always had such good tone, and was such a great guy, he helped me out quite alot the few times I spoke with him. RIP Dudley

Dudley Hill
- Rated: 43 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 1:29 p.m. Tsar Nicholas :

DNBA, I reckon you should learn to play a CC solo or two and then try and tell yourself you need another guitar to play jazz.
- Rated: 31 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 1:40 p.m. do not be afraid:

actually, i started to learn one a couple days ago, and it sounded just fine on my Telecaster (except that my strings were too light, i think, for that kind of thing!), but then it was supper time, and i never picked it back up… oh well…

but, that is completely beside the point: i don't need another guitar (heck, i don't need any guitar! i could play Jazz on a trash can if i had to!), i just want another guitar! sheesh!
- Rated: 204 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 1:49 p.m. Proteus:

Of course. We understand.
- Rated: 10 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 2:39 p.m. Daddy-O:

jazz box junkie Dudley is awesome to you know any recordings of him that you can hip me to.
- Rated: 24 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 2:48 p.m. Parabar:

dnba, if you like the P-90 jazz tone (as opposed to a humbucker), a Casino might indeed make an excellent jazz guitar (especially with nice thick flatwounds --- say .011 or .012) . There are five classes of 'em:

New, Chinese-made. Mostly "meh", an occasional good one. Cheap and readily available.
Used, Korean-made. Samick and Peerless made some really nice ones. You can also sometimes find other colors, like turquoise, black, or silver sparkle.
John Lennon 1965 (sunburst) or Revolution Casino (natural, light clear lacquer finish), made in USA, as described by Wenzel. Pricey.
Elitist Casino. Made in the Terada factory in Japan (alongside pro-line Gretsches), only available in Natural, superb quality. Also pricey (around $1,200 used or $1,600 new)
Original Made in Kalamazoo pre-1970. REALLY pricey! (well over 2 grand)
- Rated: 30 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 3:38 p.m. JazzBoxJunky:

DaddyO, check out the first few "Pearl Django albums. Dudley studied with the Rhythm Man Steve Jordan, and others. He could do the Freddie Green while playing melody, kinda different than Bucky Pizzarelli and others, a very cool style.

Steve Jordan
- Rated: 56 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 7:09 p.m. yettoblaster:

Great link!

I read Steve Jordan's book, "Rhythm Man," but had never heard him play that I know of.

Thanks!
- Rated: 18 ↑
Aug 25, 2008 8:15 p.m. Robert:

do not be afraid said:i've got this sort of “holy grail” Jazz guitar tone in my head, and i'm not really sure how to get it! all i can really say for sure is that it's not by turning the tone control down

Maybe? this is an example of what you're hearing:

Barney Kessel