The Gretsch Pages: Discussions: Other Equipment: Recording Vocals

Recording Vocals

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- Rated: 7 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 2:39 p.m. SaturdaySnax:

Despite having a bit of experience with recording software, I've done very little experimentation with tayloring my vocals to get just the right sound. I'm totally amateur and find it very difficult really get the sound I'm looking for. The combination of EQ, compression, reverb, de-essers, de-breathers, etc... my head starts to spin after a few minutes staring at knobs and faders.

Does any one have any advice on how to get started using effects to find the right vocal sound? This would be after the track is already recorded. I know in the end it's going to be a subjective thing. You gotta follow your ear. But what about stuff like the order of the effects chain? Does compression come usually come first or last, before or after eq? Reverb? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!
- Rated: 44 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 3:45 p.m. Richard Hudson:

My advice is worth what you pay for it. All I can tell you is how I do it. Right or wrong.

A good quality recording is of prime importance. After that, the first thing I do is EQ. So far, all I have used there is the BBE Sonic Maximizer. Getting the right mix of lows and highs is important. Too much lows and there's a lot of popping - too much highs and it's too shrill and there's too much hissing. Next for me is reverb. I'm a little old fashioned there and I probably add too much for most everyone's taste. On some songs, I add delay after that. Last thing is compression.
- Rated: 7 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 3:57 p.m. SaturdaySnax:

Thanks for the advice Richard! I'll give that a shot. I've seen suggestions for compression at the front and the end of the chain. Some people are adamant that it should go first. It seems that putting it at the end would wrap everything up together in a nice little package. I think I also need to spend some time messing with EQ. I often end up with something that sounds good when the volume is nice and steady, and I'm singing softer, but when I get all loud to hit a higher note, it sounds shrill and unpleasant.

Thanks for responding!
- Rated: 34 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 4:22 p.m. crowbone:

You can't polish a turd.

Which is to say, all the post production in the world won't fix it if it isn't good to begin with. Too often there is a tendency to "fix it in the mix", when getting it right when recording would be the way to go.

Seriously, go for getting the sound as close as you want as you go into lay down tracks. The time spent in pre-production will save you time and money in the long run.

I'm for a good room, multiple mic placement, working the mic vocally, a little 'verb if needed, and keep it in tune. Stupid, common sense advice, right?

You would not believe the folks I've recorded who thought otherwise.

Play with the eq and get it close to what you want, then tweak it in the final mix.

That being said, I would also do anything to serve the song. Even though not a big fan of compression, if the song sounded better because of it, then I'm all for it.

To me, compressed vocals have no dynamic, which is why I like multiple mic-ing for vocals. In your mixdown, back the close mic down for the more pronounced parts, and bring it up for the whispers.

Work the board.

This is also done by distance to mic and mouth placement, a lost art in some circles.

Hope that helps some.
- Rated: 44 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 4:39 p.m. Richard Hudson:

Crowbone, you're the pro and I'm an amateur at recording. You spoke of multiple mics; how do you place the mics and how many do you use if you can say that without giving away trade secrets?

Thanks,

Richard
- Rated: 7 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 4:53 p.m. SaturdaySnax:

Thanks man! I'll try the multiple mic idea. I think my biggest problem comes when trying to get the vocals to sit in the mix. I record a track I'm happy with; it sounds good on it's own, but in the mix it sounds like it's on top of everything. It's not blending well with the other instruments. Also, it sounds loud in some parts, quieter in others. I do try and back off when I get louder and go closer for the quieter parts, but the ratio is never how I want it. So i start to add effects (compressors, reverb, digital EQ, etc...) to try and get it fit in the mix and it gets all out of whack. I'm guessing my lack of knowledge and experience with these effects is the root cause. I think I should just try and keep it simple and go from there.

Thanks again for the advice.
- Rated: 28 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 4:55 p.m. cyclopssam:

keep your prosessers(compressurs,dehissers,ect...) at -20 and your efects( reverbs,,ect,) around 30-60 ms.feedback to taste) like every thing though it's all up to taste.. any of the mill dynamic mic will do fine. good luck!
- Rated: 44 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 5:27 p.m. Richard Hudson:

Well, here again, my amateurish ways. In the mix, I start with drums, bass, then the other rythym instruments; then vocal, fills and embellishments. I probably do that wrong too, but that's the way I do it.
- Rated: 13 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 5:53 p.m. Catdaddy1967:

This is what I would do, for what it's worth -

If you're worried about popping as you're singing, you need a pop shield - a fine mesh placed in between your mouth and the mic. You can buy them cheaply enough, or you can make your own with a nylon stocking stretched over a coat hanger or something.

For a mic, a dynamic mic will do, but a capacitor/condenser mic would be better if you can get your hands on one. The larger the diaphragm in the capsule, the better as the frequency response will be much wider.

Don't get too close to the mic when singing, otherwise any differences caused by movement will be enhanced - if you move 3" further away from the mic when it's only 3" away to start with, you'll lose a lot of volume. Move 3" away when you're already 9" away and the volume drop won't be nearly as pronounced. Also, the 'bass proximity' effect will come into play - the nearer a mic is to its sound source, the more bass it will pick up... (and any popping will be harder to get rid of afterwards)

Use some slight soft-knee compression when recording - say a ratio of 2:1. That'll help getting a little more of a uniform level to the disk.

Use some reverb when recording, but only to monitor what you're doing - don't record the reverb in case you use too much: you can't get rid of it afterwards.

Try and get the cleanest recording possible - as with reverb, anything you use while recording (eq, maximisers, etc) is there for keeps, which is why I only use a little compression...

Hope that's of SOME use for you!
- Rated: 34 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 9:12 p.m. crowbone:

Richard -

No pro here, but have been around some and picked up a trick or two.

When I refer to multiple micing, it does not mean that you need 6 mics in the room. You can do it with just one mic, but more than one take.

Just take one track up close, 6 inches to a foot and a half away, depending on your volume, with the pop screen for sure, then, do another take in another location in the room , or, if you have another mic, at the same time, find a spot in the room where you think it sounds good. Use your ears or someone else's!

What this gives you is the same performance with distinctly different equalization and dynamic, and therefore, more of a range to play with and a better chance to capture something (hopefully)special.

This is one occasion where ambiance is more than something in a restaurant. A subtle flavor can come out of an otherwise dull vocal from finessing the two vocal tracks.

And keep in mind that there's no right or wrong way to this. This is my preferred way, that's all, and there's probably a bunch of people cringing at the idea of doing this. It works for me, my style of songwriting, and others I've recorded.

I build songs off a scratch vocal, an acoustic, and maybe a click track if I'm taking this to a band. I might actually tune it to E as well.

Snax,

The more you play with it, the better you'll get. You'll find your own style of getting your sound, but your on the right track, your doing it.

Good Luck & Cheers!

John
- Rated: 6 ↑
Sep 16, 2008 9:26 p.m. Ripley1046:

I'll toss my $.02 in, I've worked in studios for about 2 years on and off and here's what I've found. First of all, start with a good mic and a pop filter. Next, if you want/need to EQ do so lightly, over EQing is one of the worst things anyone can do to any sound in a recording. After the EQ... leave it alone!

Occasionally, and I mean very rarely, slight compression can be introduced after all other editing has been done. I think most producers use way too many toys and forget that the room, mics, voice/guitar/drum/etc. are much more important. Reverb is the only effect I will use on vocals, but delay's can be useful depending on what kind of music you're playing. But again, us light verb, and in moderation.

Listen to some of the really great sounding records you can get your hands on, especially the ones that fit the style you're recording, and I'll bet anything they are simple and not over-produced.

By the way, I apologize if all this has been said above; as I didn't read the whole thread before posting. But my mind was going, and I usually can't stop it to read a page of text.
- Rated: 34 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 7:31 a.m. Bernw:

Catdaddy1967 said: you can make your own (pop-shield) with a nylon stocking stretched over a coat hanger or something.
...but make sure your wife is not wearing them at the time...
- Rated: 25 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 7:59 a.m. audiodrome:

Not to sound like a broken record, but the microphone and the microphone preamp are EVERYTHING! You could do absolutely nothing to the sound afterwards and you would have a great vocal sound as long as you have those two elements in place.

My personal choice at my studio is a Neumann U67 or an AKG414TLII through a Neve 1064, but for a smaller budget the Audio Technica mics are EXCELLENT! The AT4040 is probably one of the best mics for the money ($300) and Universal Audio makes some killer "inexpensive" mic preamps. The 110 and the 610 have a great vintage sound and run around $800.

Compressed vocals only sound good if you use a good (expensive) compressor like a Manley, Urei, Summit, Fairchild, etc. The best "bang for the buck" compressor is the Empirical Labs EL-8 Distressor. To me, cheap compressors just don't sound good, so you'd be better off not using anything at all. A good trick if you're recording digitally is to "volume compress" where you go in and "compress" the waveform (by adjusting the volume) so you get a uniform level. It won't "sound" like a compressor but it will level the signal.

You can't go wrong with a Lexicon reverb - even the cheap ones sound very realistic.
- Rated: 7 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 8:29 a.m. SaturdaySnax:

You guys are great! I feel 10X better about this. I'm going to spend more time up front getting the take to sound how I want it to.

I'm using an Audio Technica mic that our bass player picked up a while ago and it's the best thing we have. I upgraded from the nylon stocking (we had to get do paper - rock -scissors decide who was going to go into walgreens and purchase the stockings) to the popper stopper for this recording. The band is doing a basement recording using software. Hardware is limited to the few things that we got. Our bass player has tons of software options and it can just be overwhelming when you don't know where to begin or what any of this stuff does. But screw all that. I'm going to focus on the performance, taking all of your advice into account. Anything else will be just a matter of some minor tweaks.

Thanks again to all of you! This place is a wealth of knoweledge. If we ever get to the end of the road on this recording, I'll post something to the pages. I love this place.
- Rated: 13 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 9:47 a.m. Catdaddy1967:

One thing I forgot to mention - when you're mixing and the vocals are too loud n proud in the mix, again, use a touch of compression before any effects. (What I find when mixing guitar lead lines is a multi-band compressor is quite useful... there are a few VST plugins that are good and completely free - you can see what's available at KVR Audio.

Also, a splash of reverb so that the vox don't sound too 'dry' - it just helps to bed the vocals in with the rest of the track a little better...

Best of luck!
- Rated: 13 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 9:49 a.m. Catdaddy1967:

This post has been deleted
- Rated: 21 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 9:52 a.m. GentlBen:

After trying every effect and recording method I could find my vocals still sounded like crap so I consulted a professional sound engineer and he totally agreed.
- Rated: 7 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 10:12 a.m. SaturdaySnax:

GentlBen, that's funny. It echoes crowbone's point about polishing a turd. I for one have never seen turd polish on the market. If anyone has any luck inventing such a product, they could be on their way to fame and fortune. There's plenty of turds out there that need polishing.

For the sake of argument, let's say what we got is better than a turd. Catdaddy, you mentioned using a touch of compression before any effects. Do you mean while recording or at the front of the effects chain? Richard said he uses it at the end of the effects chain. I understand that everyone does what works for them and I hope at the end of this I'll have my own personal touches that give my stuff character. Personal touch is probably 99% of this here. Could you explain why you prefer compression at the beginning? Is it simply a matter of taste.

By the way, I tried voting you up, but the number didn't change.

You all have been so helpful!
- Rated: 7 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 10:19 a.m. SaturdaySnax:

This post has been deleted
- Rated: 7 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 10:19 a.m. SaturdaySnax:

Also, thanks for that KVR link!
- Rated: 13 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 11:21 a.m. Catdaddy1967:

Like I said in my first post, a small touch of compression while you're recording - say, a ratio of 2:1 (for every 2dB gain in the input signal above the threshold that you set, the signal recorded only goes up by 1dB.) This is only to get a better signal level. If you're going straight to hard disk, then it's not so critical as there won't be any tape noise to contend with.

When it comes to mixing, you can use more compression. If you're running something like Cubase (or a normal desk), use the compression on the channel inserts so that it goes before any effects: because a compressor reduces the dynamic range of a signal, if you compress the vocal tack AFTER the reverb or delay, then the 'tail' of the effect will jump in volume when the original signal dies.

Of course, that might be just what you want, but to me, that wouldn't be the 'norm'... There are no rules - only guidelines!

PS Thanks for the virtual vote! Lol!
- Rated: 7 ↑
Sep 17, 2008 11:45 a.m. SaturdaySnax:

Cubase it is. You must be a psychic or something. Thanks for explaining that. It is helpful to have words to describe what's going on...to sort of give my ear a little direction...something to listen for.

I'm going to make a copy of the track and try a little compression first on the channel insert on one, and last on the other. I'll A and B them and then go from there. I know I could have done this in the beginning, but now I have some guidance as to what to listen for. That's truly a great help. And since there are no rules, I can choose whichever sounds best to me.

Thanks again!
- Rated: 6 ↑
Sep 18, 2008 4:15 p.m. teryeah:

Skimming through this thread I didn't see anyone mention EQ to make the voice 'sit' in the mix. My amateurish experience has so far told me this:

If I have a busy rock mix going, the first thing I do is try to carve out some space for the voice using pan & EQ. I do this before I add any other effects. When EQ'ing the voice I always subtract low mids & lows, I never add anything. It all depends on the material but anything that sounds good soloed probably won't work in the mix.

Most home recordists don't have good sounding rooms, so LDC mics combined with long distance singer to mic may very well produce a turd of a track. Experiment & see what works.

My 2 øre...
- Rated: 7 ↑
Sep 30, 2008 8:49 a.m. SaturdaySnax:

Thanks teryeah. EQ is something I struggle with as well. I will try subtracting the lows and mids. I am finding now that my takes are very midrangey. Any advice for vocals that sound a bit nasally?
- Rated: 28 ↑
Sep 30, 2008 9:05 a.m. cyclopssam:

nasally? .....either bost your 3-500k or cut your 5k... something like that