Other Equipment

Pedal Order on Your Board

26

Well, Sam...the GUITAR would be plugged into it. (Through any gainypushfuzzdirtstortion pedals you care to use.)

Caution: oversimplifications follow.

We're used to thinking of a guitar amp as all one thing: you plugs in here, you does, and the noise comes out down here. But for our purposes here there are really two sections electrically: the pre-amp and the power amp.

In general, the preamp works at low signal levels, similarly to pedals, and prepares the tone to be blown up big by the power amp. Tone knobs (and amp gain stages, if you have them) control the pre-amp to shape tone. Normally, the amp's pre-amp is automatically "plugged into" the power amp.

Having an effects loop just lets you use the pre-amp section of your guitar amp as a sep-a-rate en-ti-ty. Like it was just another pedal, if you will. It's stuck inside the chassis in near proximity to the power amp section, and normally wired directly to it for convenience - but the Send and Return of the loop break that normal wiring.

So, in effect (again, so to speak), you have guitar--> 1pedalonfloor--> 2pedalonfloor--> 3pedalonfloor--> preamp-in-amp--> 1pedal-in-fx-loop--> 2pedal-in-fx-loop--> 3pedal-in-loop--> power amp.

Out of guitar through floor effects, out of floor effects into normal input on amp, out of Send to loop pedals, out of loop pedals to Return.

(No need for this discussion to happen anywhere else; it's perfectly appropriate to discussion of pedal order.)

27

Aha! Got it (methinx)! So the intent is not for the whole pedal chain to go through the loop but you can group some of them to go into the amp's send, out of the return, back into the chain, then into....er....

Guess I'm still a skoash foggy regarding connectifizations. My fault, not yours.

(It's all gone simply higgledy-piggledy ever since I started wearing mens' clothes again.)

28

Yessir. Well...to be clear, out of the send, into and through some pedals, back to the return.

But for esses and gees, you should try all the pedals in both locations and see what you think. (Caution: turn down all pedal gains and outputs first, and proceed cautiously.)

(Also, it's good to train oneself to use strict terminology in discussing the gozintos and comesoutas, because it forces us to both think and speak clearly about the signal path. Signal always starts at the guitar and ends at the speaker. While it might be all the same to the cable, for the purposes of clarity - and in troubleshooting - we're not plugging the amp into the guitar. We're plugging the guitar into the amp.

So OUT of the guitar INTO a pedal, OUT of the pedal INTO another, OUT of that one INTO the amp, OUT of the Send INTO a pedal, OUT of it INTO the next, OUT of it INTO the Return. Always helpfully herding the electrons from your guitar through all the intervening stages and finally to your speaker. Never the other way.)

29

Ah....capisc!

Bless ya sir, for your charity with both your knowledge and your patience.

30

This thread makes me want to buy more pedals just to try it out.. I usually use fuzz , brain n delay. some fuzz pedals hate not being first in the chain. I either use a rosac nu-fuzz or fz1a. But I recently bought a trem to use with the bassman.. but did not like. This thread inspired me to try after the verb tank and I really liked it there

31

This is the little board:

Shrunken brain > compressor > fuzz > delay > slow gear reverser thingy > mod factory.

I'm waffling between the mod factory and the looper for the last spot. Or I might try to squeeze it in. I think I can.

All aimed at fitting the most I can on one pedal train nano -- roughly 18"

Suggestions for order swaps welcomed.

32

I'm jealous of all your dinky little pedals.

In terms of order, I can imagine it's very psychedelic having the Mod Factory and the Slow Gear after the delay, but if you tire of wobbly and warbly delay trails, you could experiment with moving the delay to the almost-end of the chain (looper after).

I like having the looper at the very end so that it plays back exactly what I recorded, with all the effects as they were, and I can then play over it without re-modding and re-delaying what was recorded. (Of course putting it earlier would make for even more psychedelia on playback, should you engage mod and delay again. You should definitely do that.)

33

I guess I need to rethink my chain. I've got Guitar-Dyno Brain-Joyo American-Chorus- Nailhead tremelo-Tuner-Amp. The only problem is that tone is in the fingers and my fingers are tone deaf.

34

What is Joyo American?

If that's a gainodirter, that order looks good to me. (Only don't tune if trem or chorus are engaged.)

35

I'm jealous of all your dinky little pedals.

I actually bought new pedals to put that dinky board together. In some cases, I don't like the pedals nearly as much as some bigger ones I have (I like my Dan Echo way more than that TC delay, for example), but I was trying to put as much functionality as I could in a really small footprint I could take with me easily. I've got the full-size versions for home.

36

A few suprising options. They are all layed out on the floor, so I'll give them all a go. Thanks and let you know.

37

The Joyo American is a dirt pedal. It's a clone of a Tech21 Blonde, from what I'm told. A friend of mine who builds amps and tweaks pedals gave it to me because I have sent him a lot of repair business. He reminds me of Tavo,in a lot of ways. He's a good feller. I refer to it as an amp modeling pedal more than anything. I can get Vox, Marshall and Supro sounds from it. It has the most responsive tone knobs of anything I've ever owned. I've really warmed up to it. It's super cool for Led Zeppelin tones from my Gretches. Turn a few knobs and you've got Beatles and then a few more turns and you get Pete Townsend. You can find them for like $30.00 online. The tone really helps my tone deaf fingers. Looky here

38

Ok, I'll get one. Why stop now?

39

For the price, you can't go wrong.

40

I've become a big fan of cheap-ass pedals. Especially minis. No, they're not boutique wonders. They're more like pez dispensers. For 20 or 30 bucks, if you can get some neat sounds out of it... cool!

Tim, that little JHS fuzz of mine is a pretty darn neat little fuzz, if you're just in the mood to try something new out. I also hear TC has a new dirt-cheap tube-screamery kind of thing out.

41

Also, Tim, you mentioned earlier liking mod before delay? Given that, would you set my little board up as:

Shrunken brain > compressor > fuzz > mod factory > slow gear reverser thingy > delay > looper

??

42

You should try it that way and see what you think. (Details about why in post 32.)

43

You know, above I talk about that pedal being a dirt pedal but it just depends how much drive you add. It can also be used as a nice clean boost.

44

You should try it that way and see what you think. (Details about why in post 32.)

– Proteus

Yeah, i think it was that post that got me pondering'

I shall have to just see.

By the way, if you don't have something in the slow gear family, you should pick up one of those little Mooer Slow Engines. A fella as keen on interesting noises as you should have something like that.

45

Yessir. Well...to be clear, out of the send, into and through some pedals, back to the return.

But for esses and gees, you should try all the pedals in both locations and see what you think. (Caution: turn down all pedal gains and outputs first, and proceed cautiously.)

(Also, it's good to train oneself to use strict terminology in discussing the gozintos and comesoutas, because it forces us to both think and speak clearly about the signal path. Signal always starts at the guitar and ends at the speaker. While it might be all the same to the cable, for the purposes of clarity - and in troubleshooting - we're not plugging the amp into the guitar. We're plugging the guitar into the amp.

So OUT of the guitar INTO a pedal, OUT of the pedal INTO another, OUT of that one INTO the amp, OUT of the Send INTO a pedal, OUT of it INTO the next, OUT of it INTO the Return. Always helpfully herding the electrons from your guitar through all the intervening stages and finally to your speaker. Never the other way.)

– Proteus

In my experience, the effects loop on amps seems to work well with rack mount style effects --- not so much with stomp boxes. Running even high quality pedals in the effects loops of various amps from various makers has resulted in either lots more noise or much lower signal levels (or both) than when in the guitar's signal path.

It's been consistent enough that I never bother with the effects loop unless I'm in a studio setting, and then only with effects designed for that purpose. My large keyboard rig has an Alesis Midiverb II and a Vesta Kaza digital delay (identical to DeltaLabs Effectron) patched into the mixer's effects loop, and they are awesome. Work well in guitar amp effects loops too, but too much fuss for guitar in live applications. For me, pedals always go in front.

46

For me, pedals always go in front.

I've never found the need to put anything in the effects loop of a guitar amp either.

I'm pretty sure the Strymon stuff I use for delay and mod on the big board would be stellar at loop levels - but, yeah, same reason. If it's rehearsal or a gig, the difference in clarity between on-the-floor and in-the-loop would, I expect, be minimal. In studio, I'd use rack gear or plug-ins unless I couldn't get some particular pedal sound I'm used to from that gear - in which case I'd want it to sound like I'm used to hearing it: using my normal front-of-amp pedal chain through the amp.

Or maybe I'd want the Old Reliable (like a Dlx Memory Man or some other very distinctive pedal) cleaner than live, in which case I'd try the pedal through the insert on the recording channel. But still likely not in the amp's effect loop.

Overall, for guitar, I guess the loop hasn't been worth the trouble. If I was completely disgusted with some aspect of my sound as it is - in a way I thought moving some pedals to the loop would help - I'd try it. That hasn't happened yet.

As for the keyboard rig, I've generally had a rack reverb on a bus of the keyboard mixer (when I needed such a thing) - but of the synths and other keyboards I've used since the mid-80s, only the Korg digital piano has lacked all the onboard effects I needed. (And I just never do anything but reverb on an "acoustic" piano anyway.)

Most of the iOS synths I'm experimenting with now have more extensive virtual effect arrays than my pedalboard, with the effects built integrally into the patches.


too much fuss for guitar in live applications.

Bottom line for me too. Others' experience may vary.

47

Proteus, after trying a wack load of combinations, here is where I am so far. 1- BB+ 2. Dyna Comp 3.Deco 4-5-6 as above.

I also tried the Deco between the Mobius (4) and the VS Delay (5) which didn't sound bad at all (sans Comp). Where my grief is the Dyna Comp. When I turn it on, volume drops and I have to mess around with the Volume on the gain pedals. But it also affect the modulation that I can't control other than with the guitar. That a pian. Also the low end is weak. So next week I'll be trying a new Compressor on loan from a local guitar store and see if it make a difference, a T-Rex (I think) and take it from there.

Quick question. Would you consider the Deco to be more a delay or "distortion" pedal due to the sautration feature?

48

Depends on how you use the Deco...whether you frequenlty use delay/mod features, how high you crank the saturation, and whether it's more often on or off.

It's also worth noting that pedal order doesn't matter much unless you're going to have particular pedals on at the same time. The Deco is kinda a self-contained tone machine in and of itself, and I could see having it set up with a favorite combination of saturation and delay/mod, and when you used those you didn't have other possibly duplicate pedals on at all. If you were "stacking" into the saturation, though, you'd probably want it after higher gain pedals.

For me it would depend on whether it was a usually-on core tone sort of device - in which case I'd evaluate it really carefully with other pedals I was only occasionally going to have on, and position those in context of the Deco rather than vice versa.

But if it's only an occasional...might not matter much.

49

I used to have a pedal called the Experience, which combined a Fuzz, Octave, and a slight reverse Swell effect.

I could not find a place on the board where it wasn't noisy(think hiss, not radio bandwidth of police and taxis), but at the same time there was nowhere on the board where it didn't sound incredible.

A very Hendrix-y/Smashing Pumkin-esque effect, which I wound up phasing out after a stretch of about 10 years.

50

I'm experimenting with the D&M drive, made by Keeley but with input from Dan and Mick of That Pedal Show (ütube). It's a dual-stage gainer - boost and drive - both sides with simple 3-knob operation. But there are two clever (albeit retrospectively obvious) features. First, you can choose the order of the two stages with a toggle switch. (Sounds different each way.)

Second, the input and output jacks are Tip-Ring-Sleeve, normalled for the common single input and output scenario. But if you use insert cables (TRS "stereo" plug on the pedal end, a pair of separate mono plugs on the other), you get separate in-and-out access to each side of the pedal, so you could put each gain stage anywhere in your pedal order you wanted.

Be nice if the Deco (and Tavo's 301, for that matter) had such a feature, so you could put each function in its most compatible position on the board.


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