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Who makes good tubes?

- Rated: 40 ↑
Nov 13, 2008 9:02 a.m. Pseudo Man:

So I'll be online tube shopping next week. my Champion 600 will arrive in the mail, and I'm about finished my 18 watt marshall kit. I thought I'd put it out there for you guys to recommend who's good at making which tubes. My shopping list is as follows.

2 12AX7s, one for the main channel on the 18 watter, and one for the phase inverter in the 18 watter.

2 5751s, one for the Tremolo channel in the 18 watter and one for the Champion 600, I think although maybe the champion would be better off just with a 12ax7.

a pair of EL84s for the 18 watter.

and finally one 6v6 for the champion.

My default choice, is Electro Harmonix, my boss uses 'em for everything, he reckons they do just fine. Which is recommendation enough for me, but there's some cool looking other stuff around the place, so I want to make sure I'm not missing out on anything.
- Rated: 40 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 3:25 a.m. Pseudo Man:

Come on, no one's got $0.02 about tubes?

Well, how about Marconi tubes, they look fancy, especially this one. But this one looks like it might be a little more suited to my needs. Anyone used these?

Apparently these Tung Sols sing, well that sounds good. Then, the Electro Harmonix is supposed to be "Perfect" for guitar amps. Well it is a guitar amp I'm going to put it in, so maybe that is perfect.

Now the El84s, the default choice of Electro Harmonix apparently replicates the classic Mullard design. Do they really replicate the classic Mullard design? It says they're great for vox amps, well my amp is kind of voxy. Here's the Mullards themselves, with lush mids and punchy bass, sounds cool again, but what about the top end? I am a very trebly man. I get the impression these Sovteks are more of a low end tube, and maybe not quite as good as some other things that could be had for not much more money.

Now what about these 12ax7 options?

Phillips

gold plated electro harmonix

electro harmonix

Mullard

Black sable sovtek
- Rated: 8 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 7:13 a.m. ChuckH:

I very skeptical whether different tubes manufactures tubes sound any different. I can understand better built tubes being more rugged mechanically. But being someone who understands the physics involved in how they amplify, I can't understand how they would change the sound ie more mids, highs, lows... That is more determined by the circuit, resistors and capacitor values then by any characteristic of tube. Sorry to be that way but thats my 2 cents, Im sure there plenty that will say otherwise...

Im using stock tubes in DB, I do have NOS mullards, amperex, RCA and such. When I get off my lazy butt will replace them, but I doubt I will hear a difference.
- Rated: 11 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 7:21 a.m. g6120:

i believe i would look for new old stock tubes before making the purchase of modern .

mullard - tungsol - amperex

those versions are great and they sound better than the modern valves . more $ yes but you will get a much warmer tone .

the only new tubes ive heard that sound as good as the 50s & 60s examples are gold lion but thats power tubes .
- Rated: 54 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 9:50 a.m. tartan phantom:

ChuckH said: Im using stock tubes in DB, I do have NOS mullards, amperex, RCA and such. When I get off my lazy butt will replace them, but I doubt I will hear a difference.

I tend to agree with you. the new vs. NOS argument seems to be more psychological than scientific to me. And like the similar argument over capacitors, I think that the end results are minimally different on one's tone... but have a distinctly different effect on one's wallet!

Maybe I'm just overly skeptical and overly cheap, or maybe my ear is as "golden" as others. It all just seems a bit too much like alchemy to me.

All that having been said, I use Sovtek power tubes and Electro-Harmonix pre-amp tubes in my Kustom 72 Coupe. These choices were made by me based on trial-and-error,and based on their lack of susceptibility to microphonics and they way they sound to MY ear.

For the original poster, here is some in-depth tube shoot-out info that sounds helpful.

Tubestore tube reviews
- Rated: 41 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 10:43 a.m. J(esse James)D:

New production tubes get the rap for being short lived, and going microphonic. They appear to be "hit and miss".

NOS do seem to "live longer", and as far as different tone form different brands, I can say first hand that it's true.

I was lucky and had several NOS from years back, and there is a difference in tone between brands.

Subtle in most cases, eye opening in a couple. My tweed circuit Fenders loved RCA preamp tubes. For whatever reason, there was a certain "more open" sound from them in tweeds.

Power tubes generally will have a more dramatic difference between brands. Each brand has it's own "coloring" too, just like preamp tubes.

My favorite 6v6 is the Westinghouse/Marconi "coke bottle" tubes. So darn musical it ain't funny, and a rich breakup that's insanely good sounding.

RCA "Blackplates" seem to be a standard for 6l6's, and to my ears, I can see why. Very rich sounding with outstanding breakup.

New production "GE" 6l6's sound very good too. The ones that came stock in my RI Fender '57 TwinAmp sound excellent. How long they will last is still unknown.

Now I will talk "bad" about Mullards. I never put a Mullard in a Fender that sounded good to me. Not as good as an RCA/GE/Sylvania/TungSol

However, put that same tube(s)in my Vox, and Holy Moly, the Holy Grail of Vox sound appears. IMO, Mullards seem a little more nasal or midrangey, which I don't like in a Fender, but do LOVE in a Vox! Sheesh, a Brit tube that sounds better in a Brit amp

I could go on forever about tubes beacause I've toyed with them for years with different amps.

A tube is a tube, and a string is a string No, not really.

Edit: NOS Tesla's(not JJ) el84's sound very, very good in my Vox. Don't have the jack for Mullard el84's, and the Tesla's are keeping me very happy.

Be careful on the Bay. A lot of "fakes" out there that are just "rebadged" new production stuff. Also a lot of "pulls" that are sold as NOS.

I've had great luck with www.kcanostubes.com

Mike's a straight shooter, and you'll get what he advertises.

Have some fun and keep us posted.
- Rated: 48 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 11:53 a.m. BillyZoom:

Marconi-Osram, Genalex, Tong-Sol, Svetlana, Electro-Harmonix, and Mullard are ALL made by Sovtek.
Winged C is the same as old Svetlana, but they can't be called Svetlana because Sovtek owns the name.
There are Chinese 6L6's and 12AX7's that are made with the originla GE and Mullard tooling.
There are also the regular Chinese tubes made by the Chinese Government. Tesla/JJ are made in the Czech Republic.
EI is made in whatever Yugoslavia is currently called. They used to be called Yugo and were pretty good before the factory was bombed by the Clinton administration. That accounts for all six of the tube factories....Sovtek, formerly Svetlana, Chinese National, Chinese Groove Tube, Yugo, and Tesla. Everything else, is one of the above with a different name. (Groove Tube is now Fender) No single brand offers all good quality. Some have a good 12AX7, some have a good 6L6, some have a good 6550, etc.
Also, some batches are better than others. None of the current manufacturers have anything approaching the level of quality control that was common for the "old" manufacturers.
The only way to keep up with what's out there is periodically to buy a bunch of each type, and test them. It gets expensive, but it's the only way to keep up with changes in production, and to know which date codes to avoid.
BZ
- Rated: 42 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 12:50 p.m. seadevil:

I'm a big fan of the sound of NOS tubes, but I think that the Tung-Sol "reissue" 12AX7's are excellent.
- Rated: 48 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 1:49 p.m. BillyZoom:

Unless tubes are way out of spec, there should be no difference in sound between different brands of the same type. But there are HUGE differences in reliability and quality control. I stay away from tube brands than tend to be inconsistant and out of spec because the results very too much from one batch to the next, and there are reliability issues. A tube that doesn't work, or fails after an hour or two, has little value. I also shy away from tubes that tend to be so far out of spec that they have a "tone" compared to other brands. NOS tubes are great, but tent to be pretty picked over, in addition to being expensive. Back in the day, companies like Groove Tubes would match sets of tubes, and anything that was too far out of spec to match was dumped back on the market. There are lots of those tubes still making the rounds. Tubes also don't like rough handling, and nobody knows where NOS tubes have been over the years. It's always good to hold them up to your ear and tap them with the tip of your finger. If you hear anything ring or vibrate, the mica is loose and will likely cause problems in an amp. It's less critical for hi-fi amps that don't get moved often.
I haven't tested the current Sovtek Tung-Sols yet, but I intend to soon. So far, none of the Sovtek-made 12AX7's are as good as the ones they were making ten years ago.
- Rated: 54 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 2:16 p.m. tartan phantom:

Now THAT's what I love about this forum... where else can you get sage advice directly from someone who builds custom amps!

Thanks Billy! Two thumbs up for the info!
- Rated: 48 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 4:36 p.m. BillyZoom:

One thing I've learned the hard way, is to only use old tubes when I design and build prototypes. I have a box of assorted used tubes from the '60's and '70's that I keep under my bench. In the past, I found myself more than once chasing my tail trying to find the optimum value for a circuit component, only to discover that the new tube I was using was dying as I was measuring circuit parameters. If you like, I could list my assessments of current tubes, although the information is more than a little depressing. Tubes are NOT getting better. I don't know of a good, currently available 12AX7. I'm anxious to try the new Chinese models made from the Mullard tooling. I was going to hit Aspen up for a bunch, but then he sold Groove Tubes to Fender. I'm not sure how that might affect quality or availability. Hopefully it'll improve things, like it did with Gretsch.
- Rated: 48 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 4:56 p.m. dmanlow:

BZ said: If you like, I could list my assessments of current tubes

If it's not too much trouble I'd be really interested to see it.
- Rated: 10 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 5:29 p.m. illduck95:

I spent some money on NOS 12AX7's and a Bugle Boy rectifier tube, and ended up switching back to the JJ's and new Mullards that I had originally. I feel like the new tubes sound a little tighter and more consistent.
- Rated: 41 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 6:24 p.m. dubkitty:

i had one of the new "Mullards," a 12AT7, in the preamp spot of my 2-tubes-and-a-cloud-of-dust setup. it sounded really nice, but didn't have enough git-r-done to drive the signal into the upgraded output transformer so i swapped the Philips 12AX7 back in. i also replaced the Sovtek 6L6 power tube with a TungSol 5881, which i love...it's got a lovely warm, round, fuzzy feel to it. i probably wouldn't want to use them as power tubes in the Twin Reverb because they'd turn the sound to mush, but for a single tube in a little amp it's great.

+1 on wishing to see Billy's assessment of current tubes. i'm really curious as to whether there's different spec for tubes coming out of one factory with different names; subjectively, the TungSol/Mullards seem way nicer than the Sovteks, which i've never liked and have always sounded kind of cheap and shabby.

back in the 70s i was all RCA and Sylvania...i've never heard a bad-sounding RCA tube that wasn't totally shot. actually, i should put my ancient RCA 12AX7 in the preamp stage; it sounds 100% better than the more recent Philips.
- Rated: 28 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 6:51 p.m. troy6120:

Billy, please list your depressing assessment of current tubes.
- Rated: 49 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 7:17 p.m. Ric12string:

Billy, who makes the tubes that Mesa Boogie has branded?
- Rated: 42 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 7:57 p.m. JBGretschguy:

Billy, Count me in for wanting your opinion on new production tubes.
- Rated: 5 ↑
Nov 19, 2008 5:07 p.m. kristian012:

I'd love to hear your thoughts as well Billy.

I bought some NOS telefunkens the other day and I'm not overly impressed with them. I read that they were supposed to be the Holy Grail of 12ax7s. Not by my ears they're not.
- Rated: 10 ↑
Nov 19, 2008 5:39 p.m. Thilton59:

For new production tubes:

The Tung-Sol 12AX7 seems to be very consistent and clear. I've run these in all my amps and have had no problems with them. Plate length on these is longer than other "manufacturers", if that is a topic of interest.

JJ EL-84/6V6s have been pretty good to me. Haven't had any problems and they sounded better than the groove tubes that came in the amps.

I don't have anything for you on the 5751s pseudo man. I usually use a 12AT7 or ECC81 for for those. Usually it's a JJ, they're alright.

Also, for your 6V6 choice, I'm looking at the Tung-Sol 6V6GT reproduction tube that's floating around. I'm going to be putting some of those in a few things I'm building. It looks promising from the various other TS tubes I've had.

I'll agree that NOS is a hard route to take, cost and risk make it difficult to justify getting those over new production. I love the RCA 7025s I have, but I got them for free. If I would have had to pay the $60+ per tube, I would have been pissed when two of the 3 quit on me.

Happy hunting pseudo man.
- Rated: 1 ↑
Nov 19, 2008 7:53 p.m. catar:

I just put a 1974 RCA 7025 in my Champion 600 and it made the sound about 25% cleaner.It's just what I wanted more clean headroom.
- Rated: 4 ↑
Nov 19, 2008 10:05 p.m. jayb:

I'll chime in my 2 cents here.

I think the tube game is kind of depressing. I have limited money to spend on tubes and so I have tried very few new production tubes and not many vintage selections.

The first set of Tung-Sol 5881's I got went bad and were replaced under warranty. I used them for near a year and still have them as a back up set. They sound pretty good, I was happy enough with them but they do lack some clarity.

I tried a set of GT 6L6GE's that lasted half decently and sounded pretty good for most of their lifespan. But they were pretty expensive.

Next I tried a set of TAD 6L6-WGC's. Again, one tube went bad and set was replaced under warranty. They sounded really great and had a nice clarity to them but didn't last as long as others.

The last tube order I got a Quad of the TAD 6L6WGC's. One pair sounds amazing...nice clarity and thick rich sound. The other pair, had a broken wire inside and only showed up when the tube heated up and got vibrated and they were replaced. But the replacement had some static initially, then that went away but a couple months in I noticed the sound had some harmonics that were a little ice picky.

And the only preamp tubes I have found that I like are the Chinese 12AX7-C9 because I find that the overdrive comes on a little smoother than with other tubes I've tried. And they are half decently cheap....but there are still good ones and bad ones tone wise.

Except for the Groove Tubes, I have gotten all of mine from a dealer which tests them, or say they do. So it seems to me that it is a real crap shoot with modern tubes. I think I might try something NOS the next go round. I am interested in trying the Tung-Sol 12AX7 but I absolutely hated the sound of the EH 12AX7 in my amp and went back to the Chinese. Even the Philips 5751 didn't do it for me. So I dunno if the Tung-Sol would be worth trying or not.
- Rated: 5 ↑
Nov 20, 2008 1:18 a.m. kristian012:

The first set of tubes I ever bought were a set of Tung Sol 12ax7 reissues that go in my Fender Supersonic.

IMHO they are still the best tubes I have. Very reliable with sweet sound and clarity. So I totally agree with Thilton59 and seadevil.

I've also tried EH 12ax7, Jan Philips 5751, GE 5751, Sylvania 12ax7 and Telefunken 12ax7. I keep coming back to the Tung Sol.

jayb - I reccomend trying the Tung Sol 12ax7...
- Rated: 38 ↑
Nov 20, 2008 2:41 a.m. bobbyrivera:

I have seen tons of folks in my area lately posting on craigslist with "NOS Lots" of tubes.

I would be happy to post a WTB on craigslist and forward you guys the info for the old tubes if you need some. There are lots of old radio/hi-fi "collectors of parts" in WI for some reason. A lot of this stuff seems left over from some of the factories and warehousing facilities that have left Milwaukee in the last few years (or in some cases 20+ years ago).

Here's an example of what comes up fairly often: http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/clt/923095947.html

I'm not sure if this info is useful, but if anyone finds some stuff that requires local p/u, I'll be happy to pick it up for a GDP member and ship anywhere, as long as the shipping costs are covered.
- Rated: 12 ↑
Nov 20, 2008 8:55 a.m. Chonny:

NOS Mullards made in England.

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