Great but Not What I Expected!!!
« » Page 1 2-
- Rated: 14 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 7:28 p.m. Tim:
-
- Rated: 28 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 7:36 p.m. troy6120:
Great harmony!
-
- Rated: 49 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 8:17 p.m. Ric12string:
Hey, these two youngsters are really talented. The older girl plays the guitar really well for such a young one. And their harmonies are spot on. They are good.
-
- Rated: 40 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 8:57 p.m. gretschman36:
And the intonation issues, ah, tuning, is just like anything played by Keith!
-
- Rated: 49 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 9:02 p.m. Ric12string:
It just lends a bit of authenticity to it, Gman36!
-
- Rated: 40 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 9:08 p.m. gretschman36:
Ric12: Yes, it does.
Not to be anal or get on a rant, but I am cursed with perfect pitch. While a blessing, it has always made ANYTHING not tuned perfectly (and I'm talking cents, here)sound like chalk on a blackboard to me (hence, the curse).
Whenever I see someone grabbing the A to D chord change, I cringe waiting for the F# gremilns to appear -- 95% of the time they do. See a capo? I know it's gonna happen. And happen everywhere.
Accordingly, I can't listen to the Stones and a few others. Can't get past it.
Actually wish I could. Really.
-
- Rated: 212 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 9:24 p.m. Proteus:
Think of it as intentional creative dissonance, a metaphor for the angst in the human heart, the grit in the gears of the music of the spheres. Revel in those polyphonous atonal vibrations.
-
- Rated: 27 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 9:32 p.m. Jimbodiddley:
I enjoyed that more than any of the "Idol" wannabes.
-
- Rated: 10 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 9:42 p.m. Thilton59:
Proteus said: Think of it as intentional creative dissonance, a metaphor for the angst in the human heart, the grit in the gears of the music of the spheres. Revel in those polyphonous atonal vibrations.
When is the leather bound tome entitled "The Great Rants, One Liners, and Treatises of Proteus" going to be published? It needs to be done, there'll be another volume devoted just to Duesenberg...
-
- Rated: 40 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 9:53 p.m. gretschman36:
Prot: It's my inability to accept Pythagorean tuning based on a stack of perfect fifths, the Rule of 18 and equal temperament in general.
Seriously, well tempered fifths are my choice as irregular temperaments usually have the narrowest fifths between the diatonic notes producing purer thirds, and wider fifths among the chromatic notes.
When using the Pythagorean chromatic scale, there's always a problem: no number of 3:2s will fit exactly into an octave. Because of this, the G arrived after twelve fifths is about a quarter of a semitone sharper than the G used to begin the process. That's why guitars inherently have the tuning issues I described above - magnified with F#, D, A, in any position.
However, with well tempered tuning, each key has a slightly different intonation and different keys have distinct characters. IMO, that's why equal temperament and the rule of 18 are antiquated.
As an example, when I set intonation, I don't do the open then 12th position thing to set string length. Instead, I use the 5th and 17th @ A 440 - then I tune using well temperament tuning. This way there's no wolf fifth - ever.
While studying theory years ago, we learned humans can distinguish a difference in pitch of about 5-6 cents dependent upon the timbre of the pitch. For most, it's 10-25 cents.
My tolerance is about 1 cent, sometimes 2. See what I mean?
What I'm hearing is the frequency and waves in relation to the prior known note. In my head, they slam each other and produce a "beat" from the waves. That's how I can detect the differences in pitch.
-
- Rated: 74 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 9:58 p.m. bonedaddy:
I guess maybe their parents should be concerned that they're singing about gin soaked barroom queens throw you over their shoulders to take you upstairs for a 'ride'
I love the Stones, but I'd be freaked if my daughter was singing that one
-
- Rated: 212 ↑
Nov 11, 2008 10:22 p.m. Proteus:
Ugh. Math.
While I get the root of the problems in our western scales, and manage to entertain each concept reasonably well as it comes up, I can't keep track of all of it well enough in my mind to understand why I have such trouble with that B-to-G third when tuning – or, more importantly, how to fix it.
I go to wiki for clarity, and am dipped in very deep (and seemingly jargon-clouded) waters indeed. (If words require specific definitions aside from common usage in order to mean something in a particular application, I consider them "jargon." Jargon isn't BAD - but it does require training and/or demystification.)
So I find this short treatise which, though written by a physicist (oft gratuitous jargonaires), does translate the mysteries of temperament into something like English, with math I can follow if I REALLY concentrate.
But is it accurate, or accurate eNOUGH, as an overview of the issue, its consequences, and its remedies?
I have, from curiosity, gone into the parameters of keyboard instruments and changed their temperaments; I find that none of the choices "bother" me, and while I hear subtle differences in the way intervals and chords "lay" on my ear, I don't find alternative temperaments compelling enough to stay with them. (I haven't, however, tried every key in every temperament, and I understand that's were greater differences lay.)
I don't recall ever finding a properly tuned piano or organ offensive to my ear.
But some intervals on guitar, though it be "perfectly" tuned according to a tuner, do grate on my ear – to the point that I'll retune for particular chords. THAT I would like to resolve, and I think you're saying well temperament does that for you.
I get setting intonation at different "chime" intervals - but then how do you tune to well temperament? It's a different set of frequencies, I assume. Is your tuner configured to that difference? Is it a matter of knowing that you want a given string x-cents north or south of where "Equal temperament" (the modern standard according to the physicist's article) puts it?
Enquiring minds want to know. I'll sure try it.
-
- Rated: 40 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 12:11 a.m. gretschman36:
Tim: Here's a simplified overview to illustrate the concepts that will fix what's ailin' ya.
Pythagorean & Equal Temperaments
- Start with A 440 @ the 5th and 17th on each string to achieve your "floor". The idea is better intonation across the entire fretboard BEFORE the application of well tempered tunings and is the basis for Pythagoras' ratios of frequencies that make up the musical scale.
As you've probably read, his system is flawed @ C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#-G#-D#-A#-F-C.
However, his 3/2 string vibration table of 2/3 of its original length is where the 5th and 17th come into play. That IS correct. Make sense why I start there?
Since well tempered tunings are "offsets", let's start with the Pythagorean & equal temperaments to better understand the concept:
Assumptions:
- Middle C is calculated from A440 (which gives C1 261.625565);
- ET = Equal Temperament;
- PY = Pythagorean
- c = Cents
CHART:
Gb ET=600c / PY 588.27c / diminished fifth;
Db ET=100c / PY 90.22c / minor second;
Ab ET=800c / PY 792.18c / minor sixth;
Eb ET=300c / PY 294.13c / minor third;
Bb ET=1000c / PY 996.09c / minor seventh;
F ET=500c / PY 498.04c/ perfect fourth;
C ET=0c / PY 0c / unison;
G ET=700c / PY 701.96c / perfect fifth;
D ET=200c / PY 203.91c / major second;
A ET=900c / PY 905.87c / major sixth;
E ET=400c / PY 407.82c / major third;
B ET=1100c / PY 1109.78c / major seventh;
F# ET=600c / PY 611.73c / augmented fourth;
In equal temperament, pairs of enharmonic notes such as E flat and D sharp are thought of as being the same note — however, in Pythagorean tuning, they theoretically have different ratios.
Because the fifths in Pythagorean tuning are in the simple ratio of 3:2, they sound "smooth". In contrast, the thirds are in the relatively complex ratios of 81:64 (for major thirds) and 32:27 (for minor thirds), sound less smooth.
NOTE: This "rule" supports your finding above of the B, D and A issues (as I stated originally). Cool... We're "hearing" the same thing; now we're seeing it visually represented above.
To overcome the short-comings of both, we need a well tempered tuning or offset to address the wolf fifths and the major thirds, plus other "issues"(4th and 5th).
By nature of a temperament being "unequal", some chords and keys—generally,major and minor keys at (or diatonically related to) the ROOT note on which the temperament is built—are "favored" while more remote keys have chords that sound worse than those of equal temperament.
Accordingly, to overcome these issues, we need to address the 4th and 5th intervals PLUS the above with a well tempered tuning (you must start @ A 440, set string length / intonation @ the 5th and 17th, then re-tune using the below well tempered offsets).
LONG SCALE” OFFSETS (25.5”)
E - minus 2 cents
A - minus 1 cent
D - none
G - minus 2 cents
B - minus 2 cents
E - minus 2 cents
SHORT SCALE OFFSETS (24” – 25”) E - minus 3 cents
A - minus 2 cents
D - none
G - minus 1 cent
B - minus 2 cents
E - minus 2 cents
ALTERNATE OFFSETS: Open (cents)
E + 00
B + 01
G - 02
D - 02
A - 02
E - 02
12th fret (cents)
E + 00
B + 00
G + 01
D + 01
A + 00
E + 00
There's much more, but this should get you started. And don't get me started on variables like tension from finger pressure, strings, gauges, height, etc. That's a can of worms (as in the frequency of a stretched string under constant tension is inversely proportional to its length).
Anyone know how to paste charts in this forum's format? Tough doing it long-hand.
-
- Rated: 40 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 12:44 a.m. gretschman36:
That's it for tonight, Prot. I'm off to bed so I can be up bright and early and on the lookout for the USPS lady for my next Tru Arc order.
Hopefully she's into theory and math created by dead guys and will deliver them early today!!!
-
- Rated: 17 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 2:05 a.m. Dr Nyl:
You guys need new necks.
-
- Rated: 25 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 7:15 a.m. billydlight:
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! I feel like I am watching someone chew tin foil
-
- Rated: 4 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 7:42 a.m. AdamJ4130:
I'll continue to just plug into my tuner, thanks.
-
- Rated: 4 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 7:47 a.m. AdamJ4130:
i just looked at that site for the funky fret necks....
no. call me superficial, but that just looks awful. never.
-
- Rated: 20 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 8:17 a.m. gresco:
After wading through the above most informative posts, I nearly forgot to mention that the older sister does a nice job on the Johnny B. Goode solos. In case your still interested.
-
- Rated: 34 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 8:30 a.m. Bernw:
This post have been totally derailed - so I would just like to say that those girl's rendering of Honky Tonk Woman was very good. Some of their other stuff on YouTube is not so hot - but I honestly think they should concentrate on their harmonies - there's something there that is good and special. They need a mentor fast.
-
- Rated: 50 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 8:41 a.m. Richard Hudson:
I'll have to get into Gman36's tuning lesson there when I have more time. That really looks interesting. Out of tune/intonation freaks me too; although I'm sure my ear is not as well trained as his.
However, I am a groove freak. That little girl playing the guitar was spot on with the groove. Did you see that foot wiggling?
-
- Rated: 12 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 9:00 a.m. jonhope:
I thought that was really good version of Honky Tonk Woman
The vocal harmonies really lift some of the tunes they do - their versions of Help and Sweet Home Alabama are also very cool
I think they deserve a lot of credit for even attempting something like Wish You Were Here - and even more so for making it fun to listen to (I have heard quite a few acoustic versions of that song at open mic nights all of which are nowhere near as listenable as their version!!)
Cheers
-
- Rated: 212 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 9:20 a.m. Proteus:
I'm studyin' at it, G-man. But how do I tune a string x-cents off at one location, and different x-cents off at another location, and not be undoing what I was doing to begin with?
I'd seen the True Temperament necks; didn't look at cost, but I'd consider trying one.
The girls - well, they sound natural and genuine, with a familial harmony blend, and they're plumbing a better source of music than many kids that age do. I have to think parents have something to do with that.
(And yeah, when we hear pre-pubescent girls warbling away on "Honky Tonk Women," we know the song has entered the dead zone of academic/classical music. No one is even hearing the lyrics, whatever capacity the song once had to offend or amuse is long gone, and it's now the toothless and harmless artifact of a bygone era.)
-
- Rated: 40 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 10:43 a.m. gretschman36:
Proteus said: I'm studyin' at it, G-man. But how do I tune a string x-cents off at one location, and different x-cents off at another location, and not be undoing what I was doing to begin with?
You're not. You are setting the intonation the same way you would "open". In other words, open is now at the 5th. The "octave" is the 17th -- Just tune it to pitch using the tuning keys.
To set intonation (string lengths), you use the 17th rather than the 12th. Once you have the instrument stable, you THEN apply the well tempered formula to address the wolf 5ths, 3rds, 4th's etc.
I'm so anal about it, I actually use different offsets for major & minor to ensure the temperaments catch the respective bugs (when recording) as several stacked "out of tune" guitars really exacerbate pitch problems.
-
- Rated: 25 ↑
Nov 12, 2008 4:45 p.m. billydlight:
The girls were great! all the talk about math and tuning were killing me thats my 2-cents
