OKIDOKI then. Since it's been over a month since this thread saw action, I'll assume everyone has weighed in!
I promised I'd respond to the responses, and so I shall. (And thanks to all again for saying nice things, even if you only do it to see what other hoops I'll jump through.)
FIRST, responses to specific questions from specific y'alls.
jetbunny: Did you base the amp settings on the Electromatic? I mean, it's the first guitar you recorded and NEVER touched the controls after?
I think I did tweak the amp a little for the E Hollow, running the bottom a little hotter than necessary for the others, and pulling highs down a little. But not much difference from what "normal" settings would be. And no, no changes after that.
dignan: Nice, but I was really hoping for some Strat samples.
Clown. Bailiff!
The Strat-o-Various shootout has been on the back burner for months. Strats and other multiple-single-coil slabs. Stay tuned.
Boyko: I was wondering if with two NY II [the Electro Double Jet] would be alot brighter or stay about the same. I guess the bucker is adding some darkness and crunch to it, but the neck sounds pretty full by itself...
I guess I'm modestly curious about that – but I'm afraid it would get TOO bright, and maybe brittle at the bridge. I think the combination of bright but full-bodied at the neck, and dark but punchy at the bridge makes an intriquing combination, and I'm enjoying it like that.
beemerider: do you find yourself picking up the Ibanez and Epiphone hollow-bodies very often, now that you have this stable of Gretsch's?
Tough question.
First, I'll emphasize that I'm far into excessive guitar overdose. I can't possibly justify my collection in any rational way, no matter how I pretend. In any reasonable sense, certainly the Gretschs (any couple of Gretschs) would suffice for a lifetime of playing. For that matter, the Epi and the GFS'd Ibanez make a great versatile brace of working axes to cover a lot of pro territory and provide tons of musical satisfaction.
(That rational disclaimer aside, we'll descend back into my guitar-mania.)
When I go out of town for work, I've been taking either the Casino or the Ibanez, mostly because they're both thin and light, but hollow. So they definitely get play then. But the Ibanez in particular does get significant play even alongside the Gretschs. After a pro setup, it's a sweet player, and the tone is addictive in its way. Maybe it's the lack of a soundpost, but there's something particularly open-throated and "vowel-like" about its response with a bit to a lot of dirt, especially above the 12th fret. Fat but bright.
The Casino is a wonderful guitar. I love how light it is, and the thin body makes it comfortably playable. I always have to remind myself to work a lot with tone and volume controls, because – even more than on most P90 guitars – they have an enormous affect on tone, and provide wide versatility. (And I find this sensitivity and controllability to be true of P90s in general.) In fact, the Casino P90s are so hot that I have to back them down to 7-8 for a completely clean tone. All the way up, and it wants to grunt. That can be good, though it's not what I'm used to. And while I'm generally not a great fan of red guitars, I do love the red on the MIK Casino.
All that said, it isn't a PERfect guitar for me. For one thing, the tuners are not very special, and would have to be replaced for serious gig work. And no guitar is complete for me without a wigglestick, preferably a Bigsby. Worst of all, it can be a feedback monster.
Also, having played the Rose, the 6120, and the CC, for some reason I find the CC the most versatile...can't quite say why. Do you find the same?
Mmm, I think I'd concur that the Club is more "versatile" in an absolute sense than the Rose HT (that is, it'll do jangle-chime much better than the Rose will do jazz), but I think the 6120 is as versatile. What gets me with the Club is not so much the versatility (others are as versatile) as simply the mass, authority, and complexity of the tone. It sounds ... magisterial or something. Royal.
fieldhdj: T-Rose - The more I hear Hilo's, the more I like them. Not as much at the Dynasonics, but they are really starting to grow on me.
I first played Hilos while doing my initial Gretsch shop-around, where I spent a couple months going to any store that had ANY Gretschs, and playing them all. HiLos went immediately to the bottom of my list, and I had no desire to play them ever again. 18 months later, having come to terms with most other Gretsch flavors, MF had that blowout). I love the LOOKS of the T-Rose, and figured if I really couldn't come to terms with the pups, I could always move the guitar.
I really merely liked it OK at first – till I put flatwounds on. Then the guitar came to life, and now I simply wouldn't part with it. SO articulate, smooth, balanced, and full of character. It's amazing how well such low-output pickups take dirt. But we're all conditioned by the overwinding contest of the 80s and 90s, and have forgotten that sometimes less IS more. The Rose still has low output – but amps DO turn up.
I'm not the first to observe that you just have to learn to work with HiLos. I thought that meant you had to learn what they do best. But that's not it – once you learn how to drive them, they'll do LOTS of things best. They're much less limiting than I thought, and much more than one-trick ponies.
The Michael Kelly didn't seem to dirty up as quite the same way as the Epi did. Was it the guitar or the player? I'm not sure which P90 I liked better.
No, not the player. I play everything pretty hard. The Casino just has REAL hot P90s. The Kelly is not quite as hot, and the pickups also seem to be voiced brighter.
Bryan K.: I liked the DSV & 5126. My 18 year old git pickin' son with fresh ears picked the DSV, but thought the 5126 harsh.
Well, those guitars certainly have closely related characteristics. I wish I'd had flatwounds on the Electro for the shootout, as I did for the DSV, as that would have eliminated a huge variable. Roundwounds are by nature brighter and more brash than flats...
So there might be more to the difference your son is hearing than just his younger, more acute ears. I expect the two would sound much closer with the same strings... And since my brother owns the 5126, it will be possible to do that tonetest sometime.
Vandelay: I'm kind of sweet on that 6120 DSV...would you consider posting a picture or two of yours so I can have a more detailed look?
Will do – soon. If I don't, remind me.
lionel: I know that you guys all look askance at solid-state amps, but you would hear more of a difference between the various pickups if it weren't for the inherent coloration of a tube amp. Just a thought.
I hadn't thought of that, lionel, and there may be something to that. (Parenthetically [conveniently, since I'm inside parentheses {except that part was inside brackets and this is inside squiggly brackets}], I'm looking less and less askance at solid state after spending big on repairs on several tube amps recently. Seriously considering the Tech 21 TM60...)
I didn't get tubed up out of any particular bias or religious conviction though, they're all just amps whose sound I liked at the time I bought them. My one SS amp is a Jay Turser Classic 25. (Which, yep, I like.) I've been meaning to put it up against a tube amp in a shootout sometime...
otterbean: I thought the sound of [the GFS Retrotrons] tapped was a bit thin. Still, I can think of some instances when that tone would be great. It might be fun to play with that tone in a tiled room with a tiled floor. Thinking a bathroom or similar room with a small amp. Lots of high end there. Very similar to a Silvertone I heard one time.
A fair comment; those pups do thin out noticeably when tapped. Still, I expected that from them, and they thin out much LESS than I'd feared. I figured they'd be useless, and in fact had the pups in for a year without taps. Then I had my guy do the tap, out of curiosity, and he and I were both snamfoobled. (That's "stymied but delighted in a surprised way.")
Out of all the other guitars, I think this setting (Retrotrons tapped) would have benefitted most from fiddling at the amp. A bit more gain, a bit more edge, and they would have come into their own. Tapping the Retros is much like going from Filtertrons to HiLos.
Mantis: The P90's are not my favourite. Just too blurry if you ask me. I do like P90's, but maybe more in a solidbody. It feels like the very fat sounding P90's are fighting a bit with a not-so-fat sounding hollow body...
P90s are such chameleonic pickups! Protean, even. They really do seem to magnify any differences in guitar construction, and they seem to me to respond much more dramatically to tweaks at the amp, and of volume & tone controls at the guitar. This makes it hard to do straight-up comparisons between P90s and other pups, because where do you set the controls? (Yes, for the heart of the sun, I know...)
Had I backed the volume down on the Casino, it would have cleaned up noticeably; had I backed down the Kelly, it would have lost some of its stridency.
All the other pups in the comparison sing out with their own clear identity, and if you tweak settings you're refining that identity without essentially changing it. But it's almost like P90s don't have their OWN character, they have LOTS of characters, and they impose on us the responsibility of learning to use them wisely.
I find I can back tone down and get close to a smooth humbucker sound, and then use volume controls to go from sweet dark jazzy 'bucker up to raunchy barking PAF. Likewise, brighten it up and you're in fat single character – but you can use the tone control at the amp to get something like Fender-single.
So, for me, P90s are unmatched for raw versatility – but, while there IS a basic P90 character, it's not as instantly distinctive as the Gretsch single-coil variants.
I agree that P90s come to life in solidbodies – not necessarily because they're better suited to it (I do like them in the Casino, in the Wildkat, and in my Robelli ES-5 knockoff), but because in a solidbody they seem less likely to go to woof and wool. That extra energy that can overwhelm a hollowbody seems to turn into extra grit and bark in a solidbody.
I mean to do a full P90 shootout someday, but that's REALLY extensive, and because they vary so much in differently-constructed guitars, you won't believe they're all P90s. It'll end up being a referendum on those GUITARS more than the pickups. It WILL be fun, though.
For crunchy sounds, the Dyna's are great. I'd prefer the humbuckers for more saturated sounds.
Yup, I agree that if was going for fully saturated sing-scream-slam-and cry, I'd be using humbuckers.
yettoblaster: I for one would like to hear the difference the scale length makes, all else being equal. Do you suppose you could saw the neck off some of the examples and replace with the other scalelength?
Clown. Bailiff, whack his peepee.
dudleycreative: I'd LOVE to hear a back-to-back comparison of the 5120 vs the electro w/DeArmonds. I have a Tele already, and part of me hesitates to get a hollowbody with the single coils, because I want a nice, warm sound. But I don't want overly fat and muddy, you know? And I want that "Gretsch" sound.
Alas, I don't have access to a 5120 – but if someone can send-n-lend me one, I'll do test. I'll even send it back with new strings.
If I were to advise you on your decision, dudley, and go shopping with you, I'd make sure you spent time playing these models: a 6120 with TV Jones Classics, a 6122 with HS Filtertrons, a T-Rose with HiLos, the 5120 with Gretschbuckers, the 512x with DeArmonds, a Club (or 6120) with Dynasonics – and Jets with both Dynas and Filtertrons.
That's a bunch of guitars, but they all have recognizably different flavors, and it would be hard to know what YOU consider different enough from a Tele, and Gretschy enough, to satisfy.
I think the Dyna Jet, the T-Rose HiLo, and the 512x w/DeArmonds would be eliminated as bordering too close on Tele territory. But I'm pretty confident a bigbody with Dynas can fatten up enough to satisfy, and the 6122 w/Filters balances nicely between bright and fat.
I'm afraid the 5120 would be TOO dark to really nail Gretschness for you. By process of elimination, I'm thinking a 6120 w/TV Classics would be a top candidate.
And THAT would mean that, to save money and still get there, you could start with a 5120 and add TVs.
But I'm guessing!
NEXT, the reader's digest version of what y'all said about particular guitars, sorted and organized for clarity (with some of my comments about guitars I haven't already discussed).
6119-1962HT Tennessee Rose
Suprisingly, the Hilo rocks! All the claims that it's half the 'tron are wrong. I love it.
T-Rose - The more I hear Hilo's, the more I like them.
I was really pleasantly surprised at how pleasing the Hilos sounded with a little dirt.
Everytime I hear a Tenn Rose I regret not buying one yet.
5126 Electromatic Hollow
It's my favorite tone of the lot: Fat and raunchy.
I am a little disapointed, probably because I expected too much.. I think I need to spend alot more time with a DeArmond equipped Electro for myself though before I cross it off my wish list.
I liked the 5126 best.
My 18 year old git pickin' son with fresh ears thought the 5126 harsh.
The Electro misses a tiny bit here [compared with Club and the DSV].
6120 Nashville DSV
The DSV sounds trebly. It breathes. I like that. Good for twangfest.
The flats seem to add a nice dimension, both clean and dirty.
DSV is about the same [as the Club], just a bit more compressed and midrange.
6196 Country Club
The Club sounds jazzy to me til you hit the overdrive. Very, very versatile.
The Dyna's are glassy, shimmery clean and dirty up beautifully. Jazzy, twangy, or rockin', these seem to do it all.
There was something very intriguing about the CC that will make me go back and relisten to it.
For clean, the Club wins...there's just a little bit more in it.
MIK Epiphone Casino
No surprises here. I love the p90 sound - unfortunately, it seems too many other people do too.
Michael Kelly Patriot Q9H
That Kelly prototype guitar sounded really neat! I know one man's "warmth" is another man's "mud," but to me, it was really really pleasing
Didn't seem to dirty up as quite the same way as the Epi did. I'm not sure which P90 I liked better.
My comment: This is a sleeper kinda guitar. Every time I think I'm over-invested in very similar P90s boxes, I tag this one to go. Then I play through them all, and this one has something different.
It's a maple-over-mahogany semi with an unusually deep but small body, a ridiculously thick top, and so heavy a center plank it ought not to have ANY semi characteristics at all. Yet it has a bit more woodmellow in the tone than any of my solid-body P90 choices, and is both brighter and boomier than the seemingly similar Epi Wildkat (which seems all complex midrange by comparison).
Cosmetically, it has some rough touches that presumably would have been resolved had it become a production model, and it even LOOKS a little funny what with a not-particularly-graceful sharp cutaway (is that Florentine or Venetian?). I wish it had separate tone & volume for each pup, instead of a single master for both.
But it always so catches my ear when I pick it up that I spent to have a pro setup done on it – and now I'm thinking that to tame a bit of the stridency I hear in the tone, I'll try flatwounds on it. I just have the feeling it's 85% of the way toward being what it wants to be...
Ibanez Artcore AFS75T w/GFS Retrotrons
The Retrotrons are really impressive, in either mode. At the price they go for, you can't ignore these. I liked the Dynas and HiLos best, but the Retrotrons were very close.
The Artcore with GFS Retro's sounds just like my same appointed 5120.
Electromatic Double Jet w/GFS NYII at neck, Gretsch mini-bucker at bridge
A real pleasant surprise. A bit thin when clean sometimes, but overall pretty nice. Seems to love dirt.
I was pleasantly surprised by the ElectroJet... It's got some strat-y qualities.
I was very surprised by the tone of the Electromatic Double Jet with the GFS NY pickups. That guitar was ready to rock in a serious way.
My comment: Surprise is the word that keeps coming up, and it works for me. I LIKED the guitar with its native mini-bucker, but it was a bit too polite. It was Gretschy enough to make its point, and very pleasant for solo playing, but it didn't cut in a mix. The NYII made it a ballsy, evil-grinning, addictive, snarling beast by comparison. I LOVE the guitar now, and never have less than a full-on hoot playing it.
The combination of fat, body, and bite on the neck pickup amazes. "SRV" is not a set of initials you'd ever associate with Gretsch, or with a Peavey C-30, or with my touch. But with that pickup, I hear more hints of that Texas tone than I get with a Strat. Dunno what that's about!
Then I can mix the mini-hum bridge in to both slightly darken and kinda concentrate the tone, which is an intriguing thing to get out of a bridge pup.
So, thanks to some good sound engineering and faultless construction, plus the good offices of GFS, it's a fascinating little (very heavy!) guitar. When you can buy utter transformation and a whiff of Texas toast for the price of a cheap meal with your squeeze...geez, Louise, what are you waiting for?
FINALLY, which pickups do we like? Your comments:
The Dyna's are killer. No wonder all you guys love em!
I still like Dynasonics best. More highs and lows than the 2000's; more life than the HT's.
I liked the HiLo and the P-90s the best.
I liked the dynasonic equipped guitars the most. They were closely followed by the Hilos. That was followed up by the Retrotrons in dual mode on the Artcore. I thought the sound of them tapped was a bit thin. The Dynasonics really do take the cake though. The race was close for all others. I thought the tone of the Dearmond pickups was very pleasant initially. But after listening to the dynas, they were just a bit lacking. The P90s were disappointing when compared to the Dearmonds.
The Dyna's do sound great.
The P90's are not my favourite. Just too blurry if you ask me. For crunchy sounds, the Dyna's are great. I'd prefer the humbuckers for more saturated sounds. Maybe the electro performs better here, a bit more compressed.
My comment: I agree with everyone.
sam
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