I have noticed that my first opinions about certain gear I acquire,can change from good to bad pretty quickly.I'm sure that is a normal thing,but I would like to nip a specific one in the bud,or at least,get some info from players who are happy with their "Live Setup".For instance,I like the sound of the Weber 25 watt alnico early breakup Sig.12 in my Blues Jr. at home volume.Would this sound "Mushy" bad to the audience at gig levels?I guess I just don't want to think I sound good,but really sound bad to the audience because of the speaker efficiency.Would a 50 watt speaker be better for gigging than a 25 watt and does Alnico/Ceramic make that much difference for gigging?Sorry if I sound a bit confused,but I am a bit confused.Thanks for any help.
The Speaker/Amp Sound heard by the Audience?
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- Rated: 22 ↑
Jul 15, 2008 11:38 p.m. johnnyringo:
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Jul 15, 2008 11:40 p.m. otterbean:
It all depends on how much the audience has had to drink.
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Jul 16, 2008 12:12 a.m. johnnyringo:
So,all this technicalogikal stuff really don't matter that much.Maybe,if the audience has not drank enough,I could down a few shots to balance it out.That may only work in Theory,but sounds good anyway.
In all seriousness,that is a big factor......
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- Rated: 28 ↑
Jul 16, 2008 1:58 a.m. cyclopssam:
the old addage "the more you drink the better we sound" works as a unit,ha,honestly i don't think the aduiace would know or care only other guitar geeks/golden ears types would notice,do what works for you
me,i'm not into cone break up that's the job of the distortion/OD boxes.......
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Jul 16, 2008 2:30 a.m. Rockability:
The amps always sound good in the bedroom!I don't think you can too far wrong with using good pedals. I'm a big fan of the TS9 as it does have that little amount of break up at most volumes and is easily adjustable. It's 'thin' sound is easily quashed by turning up the bass. If you listen to Brian Setzer his stage sound is very trebley
Which brings me to another point; In live situations too much bass can be cause that mudiness. turn down the bass to about halfway and make sure you push your treble. The PA will pick this up better than your muddy sound. You will get used to it and might even find it chimes a little better! I personally use a Fender Deville 410. this is about 45W i believe. It can get very muddy on a clean sound if the bass is too high. Hope this helps.
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Jul 16, 2008 2:42 a.m. johnnyringo:
cyclopssam said: "the more you drink the better we sound"
I've also heard "The more you think about what your doing,the harder it is to do it".I'm just kinda nervous about a possible gig that may happen soon.It might as well be my first,because I don't drink anymore and it's been years and years since I could say I played to a audience.100watt Marshall/Les Paul = Hard n' Heavy drunk younger crowd.This time 15watt Blues Jr./6120 country oriented older semi-drunk crowd = ????
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Jul 16, 2008 7:34 a.m. cyclopssam:
a nother one "perception is everything" or
"just because you can dosen't mean you should"
don't lay waste to grampa......
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Jul 16, 2008 10:11 a.m. johnnyringo:
Rockability said: If you listen to Brian Setzer his stage sound is very trebley
I have noticed that.I will definately keep your suggestions in mind.Thanks...
I think I dig what your saying cyclopssam.Although,grampa may be one of the ones thats wasted.
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- Rated: 55 ↑
Jul 16, 2008 10:58 a.m. otterbean:
Never underestimate the power of a PA system and a good sound man to do wonders for your live sound.
Amp size or speaker size doesn't matter as much if you are running your sound through a PA. The PA can compensate for a smallish amp in a largish space. If you are playing live without a PA, size matters.
I see guys playing live gigs running direct to the PA with a POD amp modeller. I see guys carrying around small amps and running through PA system with good sound. I also see guys lugging around monster amps and doing their thing.
A while back I recall reading that the Edge from U2 actually used a Vox AC15 to play huge venues because he liked the sound so much.
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Jul 16, 2008 12:14 p.m. ChuckH:
I wonder if anybody heard this? I seem to remember hearing that the band RUSH ran their sound into an isolation booth, completley isolated from the outside world (audience) they would mic this sound and send out to PA system. This way the got the same sound no matter where they played
Johnyringo good luck with up coming gig!
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- Rated: 22 ↑
Jul 16, 2008 12:46 p.m. johnnyringo:
Thanks ChuckH,it's not set in stone yet,but "A Gig" is on the horizon one way or another. That is interesting about The Edge and Rush.I remember seeing Brian Setzer's setup in a Stray Cats show that stuck with me.I do not know what show it was,but it was a huge crowd and big stage,and there is his Bassman that looked so small.I was amazed at the sound.
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- Rated: 13 ↑
Jul 16, 2008 1:31 p.m. riz:
Hey johnnyringo, I feel you on this. I'm going through a similar situation with a gig on the horizon and trying to get gear together. It's been awhile for me, too. Not without apprehension, I dropped a wad on a Soldano SLO-100, which was the best thing I've ever heard while trying it out, but now that it's home I'm having a hard time getting along with it. I had hoped to finally have an amp that does everything well, and can handle larger venues. I think others here offer some good advice. I know for me, my neurosis re: my sound often gets in the way of a good time. Most of the good players I know just let it rip and let the audience sort it out. Live sound is ALWAYS a compromise, and I've played on enough stages of all sizes to know that. Still, I don't think I'll ever stop trying to get a more perfect sound.
Back to your original question, I think it's always good to have more headroom than you think you need. Maybe bring the higher wattage speaker along in an extension cab, so you have options. Live, pedals really can make up the difference. Ear fatigue and weird rooms have often had me edging up the volume, and there's nothing like running your amps harder into breakup than normal to make them sound flat in those situations. By flat I mean an overdriven amp sometimes doesn't seem as punchy or cut through the band mix as well, as a speaker moving into distortion just doesn't move as much air. I think you said it better: "mushy". I've sometimes thought my amps were blowing, only to discover after a set that I had really cranked them, but just couldn't hear them. The bedroom and the stage are two very different places, and nothing ever sounds as good as that cheap little amp at home... Good luck!
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- Rated: 30 ↑
Jul 16, 2008 2:43 p.m. JazzBoxJunky:
Yeah, after all these years I've come to this conclusion. I go by the 95% rule which is, no matter how much you like or dislike your sound, it's within 95% of what is really going down, that is to say, the audience is feeling the overall groove, and as long as your intros, rhythm, and outros are tight, they are getting what you are putting out. I think alot of times we are looking for really good sound and musician interaction on stage, and then thats not what the audience is really getting. Besides, most of the rooms have crap sound anyways, I've found high ceilings to be the best room sounding gigs, and short ceilings with lots of people, to be the worst. It's all compromise, and the people dont sweat the details as much as the musicians do. Just plug in, let er rip, and play the tune, the tune is what it is all about, hopefully the audience will be swept away to another time and place, this is the power of music.....
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- Rated: 56 ↑
Jul 16, 2008 7:25 p.m. yettoblaster:
For me, it comes down to the drummer.
If he's slugging away with 5B sticks: A) I don't want to play with him and, B) What was I thinking when I took this on?
To be fair, I know guys with finesse that can use any sticks they want. And I can cover the room with my 5 watt champ clone.
But, if the drummer's gonna just slug away all night without dynamics there's just no way to get the level down to the levels I like (slightly louder than living room level).
I think a Blues Junior with the speaker I'd choose for breakup at home would suffice for the places I play. But a rehearsal would definitely tell the tale better than a cold-shot sound check at the club.
I'll add this: my rig sounds LOUSY at home. But when it drives a resturant dining room while tilted back and pointed at my head, it sounds MUCH better. The room is key.
There are times I've had to point my small amp at the back wall, or put it on a chair, or place it like a monitor pointed back at me. But something usually works if I'm underpowered.
If I'm overpowered, forget it. It's just gonna boom, splash, and make me want to die and never gig again.
Until most places fill up with people (now THERE'S an assumption), most places I play are much more reflective and "live" than my house. I have never successfully used as much volume at any indoor gig (albeit they're small mostly nowadays) as I can get out of an amp at home. By my self in my living room, I want to bathe in sound.
That same level at most venues I play now would be an instant recipe for mush. A small amp can drive most rooms just fine, whether or not you can hear it coming back at you from the room (the audience will still hear it). Since a guitar sits right where the vocals sit, "less is more."
I totally agree about turning down the bass when playing in an ensemble. At my house, I want it all. Out, I need to blend. Let the bass carry the bass.
One final thought:
As far as AlNiCo vs Ceramic magnets -while I generally prefer the sound of AlNiCo- the audience won't hear any difference, AND AlNiCo can lose efficiency as the night wears on! It's because eddy currents build up and diminish speaker efficiency over an evening's time (then restore after a complete -like next day- cooling off period).
Ask the PA guy. Chances are he's using a lot more power at the end of the night than at the beginning, and it's not all just adrenyline.
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- Rated: 23 ↑
Jul 16, 2008 8:35 p.m. troy6120:
ChuckH: I remember what you're talking about in regards to RUSH, but I'm pretty sure it was just Alex Lifeson talking about how when they were recording he would put his amp in a special "box" with a mic in it, and crank the crap out of it. johnnyringo: You know the sound you like, and that's why people are listening to YOU. I always play like doo-doo when I don't like my sound, or if I have to pick too hard because the volume level coming from the amp isn't loud enough from the get-go. Make yourself comfortable in your live environment.
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Jul 16, 2008 9:36 p.m. manbearpig:
"he would put his amp in a special "box" with a mic in it"
I used to do that with my little Fender Champ, but I never much liked the result. It was hard to get a full sound from the PA alone, and it was a nightmare to hear myself. It should work well in theory, but in practice, unless the PA is amazing, you need the real amp sound in there too. Especially if the PA speakers are suspended or up high on stands (which they usually are).
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- Rated: 22 ↑
Jul 18, 2008 3:32 a.m. johnnyringo:
Thanks everybody for helping unconfuse some of my confusion.I think I really prefer AlNiCo over ceramic,at least what limited ones I've tried.I do know I want warmth and the C12n Jenson was not,but the Greenback was a step in the right direction,it just seemed to have a "ceramic harshness" that started getting on my nerves and like troy6120,I play like doo-doo if I hate my sound.I know It will work itself out as I go,so I'm not gonna hit any panic buttons.My style has changed a lot and I have to understand the dynamics that go with the changes.I do not use a pick anymore because they always seemed to be to important.I remember times when a few jam sessions were virtually killed because of losing a simple little piece of plastic.I thought that was crazy,all that good energy,instruments,and setup that basically hinged on such a small thing.I know they are a valuable tool,but I never want to feel I must have one.Also,I'm the only guitarist with Bass & Drums.No Singer.I used to sing,but did'nt play.That was always so hard to do both,but If I gotta do it,I'll give it my best.Again,thanks to all of you for your help......
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Aug 28, 2008 2:50 p.m. Ripley1046:
Just to throw my 2 cents in. I've been a sound tech for about 6 years, working with everything from high school bands to George Clinton and Flogging Molly with everything in between. One of the best mixes I've ever had was in this huge outdoor tent (which are usually hard to begin with) with a very talented, but very green high school rockish band. They showed up with a 15w guitar amp, and a 10w bass amp. I thought it was going to be terrible, but to my surprise they sounded awesome! I was able to work my magic with the PA instead of trying to get the vocals over the stage volume. The biggest problem I have is working with guitarist that think, the bigger the club, the bigger my amp needs to be. It's actually quite the opposite, in small clubs you usually aren't going to be mic'd, so you need enough power to clear the drums at least. But in a huge hall with a good sound system, (and a good engineer) you can get away with the smallest amp you want to use. I worked with Bob Weir and Ratdog a few years back and he used something like a 25w power amp with a processor and 2 monitors instead of a cabinet. The show sounded great. (Side note: Don't quote me on the exact gear Bob Weir used.) Hope this is helpful to someone
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- Rated: 22 ↑
Aug 28, 2008 3:00 p.m. gretschiam:
FWIW, I'd go with otterbean and Ripley1046. I've had dozens of amps (although I keep coming back to Fender, and the Twin is certainly the best), and you'd probably be amazed at some of the choices I've made, but 30 years ago I decided none of it matters. I play for me, and I try to get a sound that I'm satisfied with. I try to play with a low volume and let the PA do the work. If I like how it sounds, that's all that matters. I'm aware that it CAN'T sound the same to everyone out front, so trust the soundman and just worry about playing, blending with everyone else and having fun.
Bose just might change it all, but unless you're on a Bose system, you shouldn't have to worry about the mix.
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- Rated: 22 ↑
Aug 29, 2008 10:50 p.m. johnnyringo:
Thanks again for the advice everybody.I recently turned my Blues Jr. into something I think will work well for whatever live situation may come my way.It was a total(tonal&cosmetic) tranformation.I built a deeper pine cab that gave added warmth and bass.Then I was able to properly install a Jenson P12N with bell cover.I know that the bell cover is not suppose to matter,but I know the pine and extra depth lent some mojo.I then ran across a 1961 P12N and built a extention cab for it.That is an amazing speaker,but I don't want to risk any damage at high volume,so If the new 50watt P12N needs help I'll keep my Greenback handy for the ext.cab.I also performed all the BillM mods,installed a red jewel light and made some throwback Fullerton amp logos.It is literally a total different amp and hopefully will do all I need.I certainly love it so far. <img src="
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- Rated: 28 ↑
Aug 29, 2008 11:53 p.m. cyclopssam:
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Aug 30, 2008 1:03 a.m. Gigatron:
In the mid 1980s I was playing bass with a techno-pop band, and I was tired of lugging around a Fender PS300 with two 15" EVs, so I went out and bought an Acoustic 150 watt SS bass head. I thought I had made a big mistake, since, playing alone, compared to a tube amp, it sounded flat and harsh. On gigs, though, with the band, it sounded very good. I didn't have to play loud but the bass came through clear and distinct, even with just one 15" speaker.
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- Rated: 37 ↑
Aug 30, 2008 10:05 a.m. Rocketman:
@ yesterday's gig I got complaints again that my AC15 was too loud. Not only from the PA guy, also from the bass player.
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- Rated: 18 ↑
Aug 31, 2008 6:20 p.m. DCBirdMan:
Well it is one of those things where tweaky little differences between amps heard at home are kind of lost in a band scene. so the edge your vintage amp has in a shootout isn't as apparent when you are onstage.
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- Rated: 18 ↑
Sep 3, 2008 6:51 a.m. CnW:
Nice rig, johnnyringo!
