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effect of capacitor types on tone?

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  • Rated: 41 ↑

  Aug 18, 2008 12:57 p.m. dubkitty:

  in my travels in and out of the guts of my guitars, i've inevitably been confronted by capacitor installation decisions. what i'm wondering is, in what way(s) do different types of capacitors affect tone? some folks out there are religious about Sprague orange drops; there's a contingent of Les Paul people out there who adulate the old-school striped "bumblebee" capacitors like my uncle the TV repairman used to fix Mom and Dad's TV; and the people on the Angela website like their paper-in-oil caps.

  i'm particularly interested in whether different types of cap will affect the tone with the tone control wide open, i.e. with the cap function at its minimum. i'd be particularly interested to hear from folks who have experience with the different types of cap and could offer comparisons.
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  • Rated: 66 ↑

  Aug 18, 2008 1:12 p.m. Walter Broes:

  In an amp, the type (as opposed to value) of cap influencing the sound of the amp is debatable, but I'm in the "it does apparently make a small difference" camp - for now.

  In a guitar, I gave the idea the benefit of the doubt for a long time, but am now thoroughly convinced it's voodoo, snake oil, a waste of time and money, internet forum B.S., etc...

  The quality and value of the pots, and how you wire the tone pot influence the guitar's sound, but the type of cap - I don't think so.
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  • Rated: 21 ↑

  Aug 18, 2008 1:23 p.m. Mike Detlefsen:

  Put me in the Snake Oil camp also.
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  • Rated: 205 ↑

  Aug 18, 2008 1:24 p.m. Proteus:

  I always sounded great when I wore a dark green corduroy Davy Jones cap, back in 7th grade.

  In fact, we called our band The Primates at first, then changed it to The Cap Assiters in honor of my cap.

  For awhile, we went as The Cap Asseters, with an E, in tribute to that thing The Oneeeders did, but some people took "Asseters" the wrong way (and they weren't thinking about liquid assets).

  In the meantime, another local band had become The New Cap Assiters, so we had to go as The Original Cap Assiters.

  We had a song called "Over the Line" which went to number one locally, and when it was listed in the hitline survey as "1 - TOCA - Over the Line," the school guidance counselor called our parents in and told them it was a drug reference, which freaked them out.

  Our rhythm guitarist's 'rents made him quit over it, so we got a keyboard player and changed our name to Captain Bachch and the Mighty Buttbiters for awhile, playing like proto-garage progressive psych-rock. After we melted a candle on top of the keyboard guy's parent's Thomas organ, though, they stopped us from using it and then we could only play in churches where we could use their organ.

  Anyway I've never been able to get that wide-open garagey tone since I grew out of that cap.

  I tried a Skoal cap, and a Harley cap. I have a TV Jones cap now, and it's OK, but it sounds kinda gray. Maybe the bill shades my tone too much.
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  • Rated: 42 ↑

  Aug 18, 2008 1:30 p.m. tartan phantom:

  Interesting reading on this subject here:

  Auditioning Tone Capacitors-- Premier Guitar Magazine MAR '08

  Auditioning Tone Capacitors Part II-- Premier Guitar Magazine APR '08

  Personally, I think that stretching the search for "vintage tone" to a particular capacitor brand or type is like chasing a mythical beast.

  Regardless of the type of dielectric material used, the logic of the electrical circuit only "sees" the capacitor value-- and, in the case of polarized electrolytic caps, the direction of electron flow. To a lesser extent, a capacitor also has some minor inductive and resistive properties, but the effect of these on a minimal-voltage circuit (such as guitar) are questionable.

  The carbon sweep resistance strip in the tone potentiometer doesn't understand or care about the difference in the dielectric properties of oil vs. air vs. ceramics vs. mica vs. paper. Sure, certain dielectric materials have different tolerance properties, resulting in variances in true capacitance-- however, is the specific frequency passivity of different types of dielectrics at the same capacitance value really all that noticeable?

  But really now, how many pairs of "golden ears" out there are sensitive enough to tell the difference in the tone or cutoff frequency between a .022mfd cap and either a .0242mfd (+10%) or a .0198mfd (-10%) capacitor?? Especially at stage volume?

  IMHO most boutique caps are a clever marketing device to make you part with more of your hard earned money in exchange for chimera-like mythical benefits.

  Look at it this way-- if you made caps that cost only a couple of cents to manufacture, wouldn't YOU push them to sell at 500-1000 times cost?

  Flame away guys... I've donned my fireproof suit.... I wish Antik would chime in... he knows all about uber-technical electronic theory! (not kidding here)
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  • Rated: 83 ↑

  Aug 18, 2008 8:35 p.m. Mark Synchro:

  I agree with Tartan on this. I don't think that caps have all that much magic in them. They have capacitive reactance and that determines what frequncies pass through and which are blocked. Variations in quality would have some effect but overall a cap is a cap is a cap.
  

  As far as Dubkitty's question is concerned the biggest variable in that circuit would be the tone pot. The higher the value of the tone pot the less of the signal that would bleed through to the tone cap with the control all the way up.
  

  The value of the cap determines the minumum frequency that passes through to ground and the tone pot determines how much of the signal actually tries to pass through the cap. That's all there is to it.
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  • Rated: 7 ↑

  Aug 19, 2008 8:00 a.m. Sid:

  Even if there were a significant difference in the sound of different capacitor types (which I feel is not perceivable by almost everyone), who cares? Are you scared to have your own sound? Be original? Why this eternal quest to sound like someone from the past?

  I like my 6196T because it is so much different than what most people use for the type of music I play (pop-rock, leaning a little to the punk and quirky side).
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  • Rated: 41 ↑

  Aug 19, 2008 9:11 a.m. dubkitty:

  i'm not trying to sound like anybody; i'm trying to get the optimal response from my pickups. specifically, getting a little more body in a Strat and a little more transparency in a Les Paul. and having seen, e.g., how 1/16 of a turn on a polepiece adjusting screw can be the difference between "not quite it" and "best possible tone," i believe the tiny differences are quite likely audible...especially for somebody like me, who can hear a +/- 3 cent difference in tape speed on playback. i can't see spending $20 for a cap, though, so i'll probably use Orange Drops or the little silver-mica bumps.
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  • Rated: 13 ↑

  Aug 19, 2008 10:06 p.m. riz:

  I would also doubt that the cap in a guitar tone circuit would matter much, however I don't absolutely know because I haven't done a comparison, or cared to. I only started using the damn tone knob at all when I discovered Dyna's. I can say with certainty that coupling caps in an amp absolutely sound different type to type. I even wired up a switch on an old Supro head of mine to switch between three different types, all the same value, just to hear for myself if I could tell any difference. I can, it's pretty striking. The ceramic disc is wicked raunchy and grainy, orange drop very articulate, yellow mallory is warmer than the orange drop.
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  • Rated: 9 ↑

  Aug 19, 2008 10:45 p.m. mainsoda:

  This is completely fascinating, thanks for the knowledge dudes
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  • Rated: 13 ↑

  Aug 19, 2008 11:08 p.m. nielDa:

  I've been restoring some old audio amps and I just replaced the previous high-end "auricap" metalized film capacitors with paper-in-oil caps (Russian caps named K40Y) and the paper-in-oil caps sound amazingly great. Of course, this is in an audio amp, and these caps are in the signal path. But since caps are cheap and you can experiment by running alligator clips from your guitar to the caps to easily try different version, I'd say it's worth the try, and could be interesting.

  To complicate things though, also note that audio guys (they are mostly guys, I think) claim that their caps "break in" and "open up" after use. (Same claim about tubes, which makes me suspicious about tube listening tests that only last a few minutes.)
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  • Rated: 19 ↑

  Aug 20, 2008 4:51 p.m. cielski:

  There's probably less of a difference due to the type of cap than there is in the variations ---5% to 10% on average---in the accuracy of the cap.

  I've made paper and oil type caps in an electronics class. It worked, but, it's the earliest, simplest type out there, and prone to failure.
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  • Rated: 41 ↑

  Aug 20, 2008 5:41 p.m. dubkitty:

  I believe that everything electrical in a guitar->amp signal path has to break in to some extent; i particularly think this is true of pickups. the PUs in my 335 changed dramatically between 1975 and the late 80s. it's definitely true of tubes in my experience.
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  • Rated: 65 ↑

  Aug 21, 2008 12:36 a.m. antik:

  I think the type of tone cap, the ones that shunt the signal to ground, does not matter too much as long as one is dealing with a good low loss cap.
  

  That said, the human ear is generally more sensitive than most electric measuring devices. For situations where the cap is in the signal path, there are many reports of people being able to hear the difference between different types of caps. Personally I can not tell the difference. I can not say with any certainty whether that means there is no difference or that my hearing is not too acute as to be able to detect any tone differences. From the measurements of different caps at audio frequencies, there is nothing approaching 3dB differences that I have ever seen.

  For low level audio signals, I do not know of any credible theory that can explain any tone differences. But on the other hand, for high level signals there is a lot of evidence that shows there can be differences in tone.
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  • Rated: 42 ↑

  Aug 21, 2008 10:50 a.m. tartan phantom:

  Thanks for your input Antik. When it comes to theories on electronic applications, I always look forward to your views.

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