I have a Matamp C7, but this is a general question.
I read somewhere; do not play bass through your guitar rig it will damage the valve amp, and damage the non bass speakers.
Is this urban myth; if not what is the reasoning?
I notice that in the past bass amps end up doing sevice as guitar amp (fender bassman,)
I occasionally have a bass at home and want to play around; but don't want to risk damaging the C7 or the cabs I have
As I understand it there are two issues. The most important is that bass speakers are designed differently than guitar speakers. The metal "baskets" that form the frame are designed to allow greater cone movement with bass speakers so a bass played through guitar speakers can cause the speaker cones to contact the speaker frame and rip the cones. I wouldn't be too concerned at living-room volumes.
The other issue concerns the "voicing" of the amp. According to what I've heard, bass amps are designed to handle bass frequencies and a bass played through a guitar amp will sound pinched. Frankly, I'm not all that convinced about this contention. My living room amp is a Blues Jr which is plugged into an
Avatar bass cabinet. It sounds great for my basses and for my guitars as well.
Many a hard rock/heavy metal bassist has played through a Marshall guitar amp and I don't think that they've blown up any more frequently than they do when a guitar is played through them.
One other thing comes to mind, most bass cabinets are close backed. This supposedly helps control speaker cone excursion and helps the low notes to get pushed out to the audience instead of sneaking out the back of the speaker cabinet.
Thanks Mark that was very helpful.
The cone movement would explain the specialist Bass speakers, and the cab construction with closed backs and porting, along with all that complex acoustiphysics (or whatever) calculation.
nonsence,pretty much what mark said.a lot of the old tube heads were "AP" or all porpose guitar,bass&keyboard my favorate visual was stevie wonder on sesame street w/ two orange 1/2 stacks! so?,there might be something to that speaker myth,but you'd have be moving a LOT of air to distach a cone or tear a crease,but normal pratuce/gig volume you should be fine.i use to play bass though my hiwatts all the time when i'm too lazy to swich rigs.i knew this one ska basist who's rig was a ampeg V-4 1/2 stack a bass never sounded as good!,i excel at blowing things up.most of my problems over the years was feeding too hot a signal(square waves) into to wide a cone15-18" speaker don't like high level of square waves(rip.....)ha,ha,but i've never had a problem w/12" speaker that way. i have ripped a few w/ mega loud dely slapback,again that was with insane volumes most will never tred,were talking whitehouse(the band) stuff other than that no worries ......
Hi!folks, remember, in the early days of instrument amplification there was no real difference between guitar and bass amplification. Besides that, most amps had a bass voiced input.
Technology was very primitive(P.A. had to be invented too).
Speakers couldn't handle more that 25 watts. That's the reason 4x12 was invented; to stand 100 watt nominal output from a Marshall head. Hendrix had to update his cabs with 35 watts speakers, as he blowed a lot of speakers.
With the advent of the powerful Ampeg "SVT"(300watts)and it's adequate 8x10 inch enclosure and the first solid state Acoustics the first real bass amps had arrived... Before that bass players played same rigs as guitarists. Of course the powerful Orange and Hiwatts beeing all purpose and quite linear made them ideal candidates for 4 string rumble.
In my personal experience, I've played Orange, Hiwatt and Marshalls and lately an Acoustic BUT ALWAYS through dedicaded bass enclosures.
I had a 15 inch Pentatonic speaker that I used for practical reasons, and after a few gigs with an Orange 120 watt head that speaker(150w power handling)made some scratching noises.
Sorry guys, my advice is that guitar speakers are NOT for bass. Fine for you if you're lucky enough not blowing them, but that's not my case, I've been doing this too many times already.
There's been a similar discussion about this on another forum I frequent.
The amp shouldn't be much of a problem. Guitar speakers however, aren't designed to handle those low frequencies. In closed back cabs, there's even more chance you blow the speakers.
If you keep the volume low, you should be fine. But only if you do it occasionally.
Hi!folks,
I wanted to add that if you listen to some Jimi hendrix or Cream live recordings, the bass sounds quite distorded...well if you like that sound, why not, but it's an indication that something will end blowing. I prefer play safe using a fuzz pedal to get that sound.
As long as you're on this topic, could I add another tangent? I don't know if this is also an old wife's tale or not, but I was told that regardless of other issues the size of the speaker makes a big difference. The tech that told me this said that the best bass speakers were 15" because it's closer to the physical size of sound waves in that frequency. That was supposedly also why the best guitar amps used 12" speakers. Even if true, I realized it's all changed based on new technology and improvements in speaker design and power supplies, but is there any truth to that at all? It's kept me going back to 12-inch speakers for performance amps for about 40 years.
Hi!gretschiam,
you're right about 15 inch(and even 18 inch) beeing adequate for a better reproduction of bass frequencies. Although, lately that 4x10 inch enclosure(with tweeter) has proved to be very efficient for all frequencies when playing a bass. One or many 12 inch have their merits for guitar, that's a fact, but on the other hand, Dick Dale plays Fender"Showman" amps through 2x15 inch cabs and he really doesn't sound "bassy" at all. And that classic punchy and bell ringing tweed "Bassman" owes to the 4x10...
Any amp is fine if you like the tone. It won't hurt anything. Marshalls were originally intended to be bass amps, but guitar players liked them too. I often use a Twin, or even a Champ for recording bass in the studio. Just don't push the speakers. The lower frequencies are harder on them. Modern 10" bass speakers are designed for long-throw. That means the cone moves further back and forth, so it doesn't have to be as big. They're not very efficient, but modern solid-state amps put out hundreds of watts, so it doesn't matter. In the old days, bass speakers had to be big so they could produce good low end with only forty of fifty watts of power. The tweeters on modern bass cabinets are there to accommodate the Hippity-Hop players who click their strings. Dick Dale's Showmans have JBL D130's, which aren't bass speakers, and have better high end than any other guitar speaker except a JBL D-110. D130's were the standard speaker for Rockabilly and Surf guitar, as well as being the preferred PA speaker in the sixties and early seventies. I still prefer them.
I've heard similar things Gretschiam and in defense of that point of view I have to say that I like the sound of a guitar played through 12s better than most other speaker sizes. I used to think that anything below a 15" stunk for bass but both of my bass rigs use 12s and sound just fine.
BZ hits it on the head, modern bass speakers are designed to handle it, even the smaller diameter ones. There's one other factor as well, modern music uses the bass differently than the music of 40 - 50 years ago. Back then many people wanted the bass to sound dull and to thud out its tones.
A lot of bass players today employ rigs with more than one speaker size. 15's and 18's give you that deep low-end "throb" (Noel Redding was a fan of Sunn amps with the big speakers, if that helps define throb for you!). They respond slower, though, so if you play a more percussive style where your parts are intricate/busy those big speakers will not give your style the "punch" you'd get from 10's. Mix 'em up and get the best of both worlds...if your rig is well-designed anyway!
I used to run a P-bass through my silverface Vibro Champ for recording. Mic'ed the speaker and got a real cool woofy sound that I used for an effect.
Yes the length of those lower frequencies; excerpt I found.
The wavelength of a sound can be determined by dividing the numerical value for the velocity of sound in the given medium at the given temperature by the frequency of vibration. For example, if the velocity of sound in air is 1,130 ft per second and the frequency of vibration is 256, then the wave length is approximately 4.4 ft.
And 30hz would be 37.6ft, 50Hz a comfortable 22ft. So I don't think the diameter is related to the wavelenth, as the matching frequency for a 15" speaker, using the above speed of sound, would be 904hz
and the diameter of the 15" or 18" (never seen one though) speaker may have more to do with air moved; else all of those 4 x 10 and 8x10 cabs would make little sense.
But bass speaker tradionally are larger diameter; so it must contribute in some manner. And a lot of cabs do the combo, of 15/12/10 speakers.
one more thing,a lot of old time,even a lot of todays 12" speakers frequncey range bottoms out around 100hz.so if your mis-maching heads&cabs and you head is throwing out,say? 80hz witch a lot of heads could do back then(at 25 to 50 watts PER cone) then you've got problems.always check yer spec.sheet....
love my fanes-
Hi Hobie- it's been a while. Hope you're fine and dandy.
I've been playing a lot of bass gigs this year- using a Mustang through a Peavey Delta Blues guitar amp. If it didn't have a 15" speaker I wouldn't have attempted to use it. It would probably sound fuller with a closed cabinet but it's been great for stage sound, mic'd then going through a big Meyer rig.
It worked amazingly well for those tubby pizzicato 60's and tic-tic (trebly, damped, plectrum) styles, perfect for the Elvis guy I was working for. Not a lot of headroom, but a very authentic tone shape, particularly for 'Little Sister' and 'Marie's the Name' bass sounds.
There are times when a little amp sweating is just right!
Edit- double post, first time that's happened! Will endeavour to use the opportunity wisely...
Deep perceived bass sounds tend to occur around 150Hz-200Hz, dip with the trough between 400Hz and 800Hz to let the guitars/horns/keys breathe. When mixing, studio or live, I tend to park the bass drum under the Fenderbass/string bass, frequency-wise.
Unexpected and unsolicited frequency opinions are purely due to doublepostitis.
I used to play bass. Basically used guitar amps rather than anything special purpose. Some amps worked better than others though. Never blew one up. But I also do not recall ever cranking the volume all the way up.
Hobie said: bass speaker tradionally are larger diameter; so it must contribute in some manner.
You're completely right, a full-wave speaker would be pretty unwieldy and completely impractical. I think (opinion alert) that the more air you move the beter it is for bringing out the low frequencies but it's a matter of degrees. In the days of AM car radios the miniscule dashboard speakers of the day somehow managed to at least make the bass parts audible although they were not so well amplified as they are with the cars stereos of our present day.
FWIW, one of the little projects I have in mind is to convert my '65 Twin RI into a faux Blonde Showman. My primary motive is to make it easier to carry but I also intend to use a closed-back speaker cab with a pair of 12" bass speakers. This should, at least in theory, allow me to use the Twin for guitar, my baritone and for bass. When/if I actually do this we'll have to see how it turns out.
Hobie said: and the diameter of the 15" or 18" (never seen one though) speaker may have more to do with air moved; else all of those 4 x 10 and 8x10 cabs would make little sense
I'm out of my element discussing what kind of low lows you can get out of 10" speakers. But I was at a local shop a couple of years ago checking out a late '60's Jazz Bass strung with flats. They were gracious enough to suggest I plug into their Ampeg SVT (with 8x10 underneath). J-Bass pickups are not great at reproducing lows, but Brutha, there was sure some bass going on in that room!
I don't know about the new stuff, but the original SVT's had eight 32 ohm acoustic suspention speakers that had really long throws. With a 300 watt tube amp, that makes for some big low end. The later St. Louis Music Ampegs were pretty crummy, but they've been recently bought by Loud Technologies, and I think the quality is improving.
This was maybe 2 or 3 years ago and was a new floor model. Sure moved some pretty air. No idea how it would compare to the revered model so popular in the early '70's though.
(Maybe roadies didn't exactly revere them...)
love my 8x10's,yep they still go down to 32hz yhey can take pretty much ANYTHING you can dish out,but really32hz that's talking to whales stuff,ha!the "new" models have biult in wheel caster&handrails,that's what roadies&male groupies are for,free beer,ha!-
Sam said: that's what roadies&male groupies are for
Maybe
note beer in hand!!......ii rest my case,ha!
It's my understanding that playing bass thru guitar speakers lowers the impedance of the speaker as it tries to recreate those frequencies, and I think that is where the risk is, not to mention blowing the speaker and running the amp with no load. My 4x12 cab took a hit lately. One speaker is scratchy now after it became a bass cab for a rehearsal. Sounded great, tho! But we all know it's o.k. if nothing gets hurt, right?
