About the Gretsch Pages

On pumpkins and politics: Changing up what’s allowed on the site

76

Thanks for GDP - it's great.

I know I'm an oddball for liking the political threads. It's interesting to see how people around the country & around the world see things. And I don't mind them so much when they get difficult. OTOH I can see how moderating them would be a pain.

In the end it's your place, you do a good job with it, run it as you see fit.

77

the thing is , these are such hot button topics they will inevitably become heated. It's just the nature of it and who we are. Core belief's and all that good stuff, ya know. --Suprdave

Really? We are incapable of moderating our behaviour and speech, even when it comes to core beliefs? No one's life is being threatened in these discussions. No violence is occurring. It is just speech. Some people are able to act as adults and participate in civil discussion and apparently others aren't.

The real problem is when things start to get personal and ad hominem attacks occur. And then that carries over into future discussions.

At the risk of repeating myself, habitual offenders need to be put in the penalty box. If they repeat offend, then they need to be sent off the island. Even if it is people whose contributions we otherwise enjoy. It isn't a difficult concept.

78

the thing is , these are such hot button topics they will inevitably become heated. It's just the nature of it and who we are. Core belief's and all that good stuff, ya know. --Suprdave

Really? We are incapable of moderating our behaviour and speech, even when it comes to core beliefs? No one's life is being threatened in these discussions. No violence is occurring. It is just speech. Some people are able to act as adults and participate in civil discussion and apparently others aren't.

The real problem is when things start to get personal and ad hominem attacks occur. And then that carries over into future discussions.

At the risk of repeating myself, habitual offenders need to be put in the penalty box. If they repeat offend, then they need to be sent off the island. Even if it is people whose contributions we otherwise enjoy. It isn't a difficult concept.

– Ric12string

Right on!! Im tired of the political tirade crap in a guitar forum, its caused record numbers to leave this wonderful place because of some fart heads want to swing an old fish around the room like a weapon.

79

For once (though I've noticed it happening more frequently recently), I'm in agreement with nearly everything in ruger9's Post #69 - though, as I'm fixin' to point out, I draw slightly different conclusions from a couple observations.

Sez ruger:

The problem with discussing these issues online is that the relative anonymity makes people brasher than normal; you can't hear people's tones. People get insulted MUCH easier, and people are willing to insult MUCH faster. Much easier to be sarcastic, snide, and "clever" (gotcha!) when typing on the computer. If we were all sitting around a room together, I don't think the conversations would get as heated, or as snarky.

Yes, just so, zakli zakli. AND - the reason I think hot-button discussions on the GDP are often more productive than similar discussions on platforms dedicated to conflict and interpersonal animus is that we are not nearly as anonymous here as at such sites. (And even those perpetual posters on those sites who make themselves ubiquitous are STILL posturing in much larger user groups without the same level of personal acquaintance we've developed here.)

I think all the behaviors enumerated in the quote above (thinner skins, acceleration from 0-insult, and deployment of snide clever sarcasm) are actually less in evidence here than elsewhere. And some of the tendency toward the latter is a product not so much of being online as being in a textual environment where we have time to craft our responses. We can use that time to edit, to hear our own tone, to moderate our first aggressive impulses with respect - to speak to each other as we would like to be spoken to, to get all Golden Ruley about it - or we can use that time to hone the kind of sneering barbed witticism we always wish we could have thought of in time during a verbal (rather than textual) debate. Alas, I've done both - though I think with time (and maybe gradual testosterone depletion) I've tended more toward moderating my responses. At least I've intended to.

Nother words, to me the GDP feels a lot more like "sitting around a room together" than other online forums. There seems more mutual respect (though no doubt things sometimes get heated). I often ask myself "how would I handle this IF we were in a room together." It helps to humanize each other, rather than to demonize.

And I think the fact that we know so much about the other parts of most of each others' lives - particularly through our common bond of music in general, guitars in particular, and Gretschs even more specificially - continually reminds us that we are not defined by our political or religious views. We're more rounded, 3D people to each other. And in a very specific example, while you and I - speaking to ruger - have certainly gone many rounds on political issues, we've figured out how to engage without trying to knee each other in the nuts. And even in the depths of bloodier battles, it helped to remember our many common interests in pedals, and that I respect your experience and ear.

I have been saying this for awhile now... just because someone disagrees with you politically does not mean they are bad person, a racist, homophobe, misogynist, fascist, freeloader, idiot, warmonger, or anything else you care to come up with. It means that they are likely a very fine person who thinks differently than you do. But that is unfortunately lost on internet forums.

But IS it lost? Haven't we learned those things about each other in large part because we've had to the opportunity to get to know the other aspects of each others' lives in the way I tried to detail above?

I have learned from the political discussions here, as have others, but imo the cost is higher than the benefit.

I guess I think the cost and benefit at least break even - or that the benefit wins. Opportunities to engage with people of different strong political views in a cordial, respectful, and even productive way have diminished everywhere else.

this is the ONLY music forum I frequent that even allows (allowed) these discussions, and it's the one I have seen the most venom in as well.

Well, I think we feel the venom more strongly when it's about politics or religion - but I see plenty of venom about trivial matters in other music forums, and WAY more arrogant, dismissive posturing about styles of music and gear. I also see endless pages of really rudimentary, let's say dumb comments devoid of any content whatever. Everyone goes around all back-slappy happy and full of hail-fellow-well-met camaraderie, but it seems shallow and superficial. It's the eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. It's thank-God-Nurse-Cratchitt-handed-out-the-ludes.

I don't know to what extent having weightier discussions here has created a more interesting meeting place, a place where we seem to know each other better. But I bet they're part of it.

All good people, for the most part, but the "debating while not face-to-face" thing seems to remove the humanity from the situation, and everyone turns into a political satirist.

That happens, of course. I find it helps to imagine we are face-to-face, and that's easier where we know each other better.


Again, I still don't recall that I've ever started a thread on politics or religion, and those subjects are certainly not why I spend too much time here. It's not like I'm hankerin' to have some knock-down drag-outs. Like, at ALL.

But, as several international members have put it, those threads have provided much insight into the way others think, and the reasons they do. I've learned a good bit not just about our domestic political domain, but those of Europe and other areas as well. That's been very valuable to me.

One of the attractions of the GDP, one of the things that makes it very different from most music forums, is that every part of our lives has been shared here. It has welcomed and accommodated the whole person, not forbidden whole dimensions of our experience and personalities.

Everything in our lives touches our music, and music touches everything in our lives.

Just some reflections.

80

"But IS it lost? Haven't we learned those things about each other in large part because we've had to the opportunity to get to know the other aspects of each others' lives in the way I tried to detail above?"

I think you might have misunderstood, or perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I meant by that was when you are only looking at typed words, you aren't looking as much as people's personalities, and you certainly aren't hearing their tone, or seeing their facial expressions. Sometimes, reduced to just words, people can infer the wrong meaning... it's happened to me many times (even in a recent thread where Bax wasn't getting what I was saying... or perhaps HOW I was saying it...)

Which is also what I meant by:

"All good people, for the most part, but the "debating while not face-to-face" thing seems to remove the humanity from the situation, and everyone turns into a political satirist."

81

I'm with you. I accept all that as given. No doubt we lose context and expression cues online, and it does complicate reading tone. I think we have to both be aware that can happen (and give some benefits of doubt, maybe even ask for clarification), and to work to make up for the deficiencies with more textual precision.

Also, over time we do learn individuals' posting styles, and get better at reading their tone.

82

"Also, over time we do learn individuals' posting styles, and get better at reading their tone."

Good point. Especially the old guys, they've been at it longer (wink)

...IDK why emojis are not working for me...

83

Tim, go tell the Missus I told you I love you again. Your smart is so smart I feel dull in comparison. What makes this space so special IS that we know one another. I'd like it if we moderated outselves a little better when a stream clearly needs it.

84

Some like to read. Some like to discuss. Some discussion leads to conflict. Three arenas of high probability conflict have been closed. Those seeking conflict will find it..... Lemon Pledge, poly, Electromatics, piping, and other opportunities still exist. Thanks for all the enjoyment and enrichment this place offers.

85

"Also, over time we do learn individuals' posting styles, and get better at reading their tone."

Good point. Especially the old guys, they've been at it longer (wink)

...IDK why emojis are not working for me...

– ruger9

Eff that I'm not old, your soul must be old and you are a few yrs my junior. Emojis are so 2000 'n late, you should be using memes

86

I have never, and will never, use an emoji. I know how words work.

With the use of emojis and such, it seems like we're going full circle back to hieroglyphics and pictographs.

89

Strangely enough, I've found this forum to be quite civil in the last year or two.

When I started looking at it at about 2000. Personal trolling battles seemed to happen all the time. Many times people took down celebrities one at a time. Thank God these times are done.

Your guidelines seem quite reasonable to me. But when you see a thread going in an interesting direction, you should go with it, at least for a while.

Lee


Register Sign in to join the conversation